Do you believe there is a God??

[Sinon]

I agree with "Kazam".

I'm not sure I understand what Dee meant by her "quite frankly shocked" comment.

I think the main part that causes concern is "who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing?"

 

[mrldii]

I think the main part that causes concern is "who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing?"

Yeah...that was the part that kind of threw me off.

Read like the same thing every known child predator has ever said while getting cuffed...and then again, in front of the judge when presenting their defense.

 

[Capt. RiskyBoots]

As a Christian, I don't even know. If anything, I'm rather confused on the entire situation...

 

[Wonko]

^
I couldn't have said it better.

I believe there is a God, and in regards to what Stephen Fry said in that interview, maybe God has a plan so big and so complex that the entire hierarchy of values and standards of ethics that we base our current world on are not capable to contain it. Maybe God's view of the entire timeline since creation till the end of time is so sophisticated that it can't even be measured by our current thinking.

Oh, "He let a child die from bone cancer, so He must be evil". That's an ignorant atheist belief that shows the fact that they are not capable of seeing beyond their own set of principles, ethical and intellectual values. Who is to say that death is a bad thing? Who is to say that death is not just God's way of taking a soul into Heavens to save that human from living a horrible life filled with terrible events? Who is to say that the soul of the child didn't agree, before (s)he was born, to be sacrificed in exchange for something in God's plan? Who is to say that something better will become of said soul in the afterlife than it would have become had he lived a long human life?

And as far as beowulf's signature is concerned, who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing? Our current cultural standards of modern society? I'll show you tribes in Africa where children being sexually deflowered by the village "shaman" is considered a beneficial ritual that has to take place in order for the community to prosper because their gods demand it. It's all a cultural construct. Do you consider yourself superior to those people? Well, guess what? They consider themselves superior to us too.

You are welcome to believe in a god and I would defend your right to believe, but to say Mr Fry is ignorant for holding his opinion that to let a child die of cancer is wrong, just shows why religion causes so much pain and suffering, you are displaying arrogance towards people who hold a different view point than your own and this is common to a lot of religious people they think they have all the right and all the answers so every one who disagrees must be either wrong or arrogant or both.
And for saying child abuse is not wrong and then to try and justify the statement by siting a very very small community that practises child abuse as their cultural way of life just is mind bogglingly stupid and naive why has the rest of the world made such things illegal and abhorrent to their societies, I tell you why because its just plain WRONG!!!!!
Most of the rest of your post is just a load of stupid bollocks imho, if death was a good thing and we would all be better of dead then how come we spend our lives trying to convince the grim reaper to go elsewhere?? oh sorry thats right it must be gods master plan

Just for your info Mr Stephen Fry is an incredibly intelligent and compassionate man so to call him ignorant is quite something, I would put far higher store by Mr Frys thoughts than yours by a very long way indeed to be quite frank I would not like to dive in to your mind for all the money in the world based on what you have posted here.

 

[Raven]

^
And as far as beowulf's signature is concerned, who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing?

Are you sick in the head. Do you know what it's like? Do you know anyone who has been abused?? Do you know how it affects them? It RUINS children's lives and they're adult life.

You are comparing a ritualistic act to a modern day society.

 

[alakazam]

Are you sick in the head. Do you know what it's like? Do you know anyone who has been abused?? Do you know how it affects them? It RUINS children's lives and they're adult life.

You are comparing a ritualistic act to a modern day society.

First of all, I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me, cause I've been quite polite to everyone so far. Secondly, you don't have to know what something is like to have an opinion about it. You don't have to have have gay sex in order to know that you're not a homosexual. You don't have to be a drug addict in order to know that drugs are bad.

Yes, I know quite a few people who have been abused during childhood and have turned out to be remarkable individuals who are in healthy relationships, have a job, and have enough sense of humor as to make jokes on their own expense and enjoy the occasional dark "controversial" humor about rape and abuse from stand up comedy shows. Two of them are even staff members of my forums, and they're lovely people who I might invite here to express their opinion. But then again, they would probably be bored by your uptighness.

Yes, I'm comparing a ritualistic act from today's society from another continent with today's society from this continent. Studies who have analyzed the tribes' in discussion's cultural background have shown that there is no such thing as the idea of suicide among any of their teenagers who have been the subject of these rituals, and none of them have shown any form of mental torment or depression. Moreover, having been explained by their parents that it's part of their tradition, they embrace the idea with a positive attitude. Similar to how in ancient times, teenagers chosen to be sacrificed to a god in order to gratify said god's senses felt honored and excited about having been selected.

Now try to step back a little from your indoctrinated views and understand the fact that your horrified reaction is all because of a cultural construct. You were told all your life that children and sexuality don't mix. Creepy, perverted, horrible etc., whatever you may want to call it. Does the Bible mention anything about that? No, it doesn't. It condemns extramarital fornication. That's about it. So don't bring God into your modern age view on life and blame God for something that He may not evaluate by the same moral compass as you.

 

[mrldii]

Yes, I know quite a few people who have been abused during childhood...

Impossible!!! You can't possibly know someone who's been "abused during childhood", because you'd already told us there is no such thing as child abuse.

You should tell those "quite a few people who have been abused during childhood" that you personally know and interact with that is wasn't really abuse - it's simply OUR social constraints and confines that make it seem so

and they should view their "abuse" as simply a "ritual"....yanno, a rite (right?) of passage.

 

[alakazam]

because you'd already told us there is no such thing as child abuse.

When did I say that? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. There is child abuse out there. I was just questioning whether God evaluates it by the same moral standards as hours. Normality is relative. What is normal for the spider it's chaos for the fly. By today's standards, allowing the devil to kill Job's family, take all his possessions and give him a painful illness would be a horrible act of cruelty. By God's standards, it was a test to verify Job's faith, test that Job passed. As a result, he earned himself eternal life in heaven, together with the souls of his family.

Similarly, for us, a priest abusing a child is a horrible event that we are outraged about. For God it may be part of an incredibly complex plan that includes elements and aspects which we do not know, understand or be able to understand with our current intellect.

Impossible!!! You can't possibly know someone who's been "abused during childhood", because you'd already told us there is no such thing as child abuse.

You should tell those "quite a few people who have been abused during childhood" that you personally know and interact with that is wasn't really abuse - it's simply OUR social constraints and confines that make it seem so

and they should view their "abuse" as simply a "ritual"....yanno, a rite (right?) of passage.

Seeing how I don't believe in the pagan gods of the African tribes, I don't see why I would tell them that. But I have told them that all bad experiences in life may come from God's attempts to test us or from the structure of His plan for humanity. Some of them agreed with me, as they share my Christian views, others - who are atheists - disagreed, but that doesn't change in any way the fact that everything in this world is relative and a product of social construct.

 

[Bluezone777]

that doesn't change in any way the fact that everything in this world is relative and a product of social construct.

If everything is relative to you then how can your statement be a fact? By your logic, there are no facts to be had so how can you state one while denying the existence of facts?

 

[mrldii]

When did I say that?...

... who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing? Our current cultural standards of modern society? I'll show you tribes in Africa where children being sexually deflowered by the village "shaman" is considered a beneficial ritual...

You're welcome.

Don't *make* me play secretary for you, again. If you can't remember what you type from post-to-post and/or are too lazy/too sickened by your own words to go back to find and read them for yourself,


perhaps a "Debate" forum isn't the best place for your *talents*.

 

[Raven]

First of all, I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me, cause I've been quite polite to everyone so far. Secondly, you don't have to know what something is like to have an opinion about it. You don't have to have have gay sex in order to know that you're not a homosexual. You don't have to be a drug addict in order to know that drugs are bad.

Now try to step back a little from your indoctrinated views and understand the fact that your horrified reaction is all because of a cultural construct. You were told all your life that children and sexuality don't mix. Creepy, perverted, horrible etc., whatever you may want to call it. Does the Bible mention anything about that? No, it doesn't. It condemns extramarital fornication. That's about it. So don't bring God into your modern age view on life and blame God for something that He may not evaluate by the same moral compass as you.

First of all, Don't say something so controversial and expect people to be polite about it!!
Secondly, you can have your opinions, but you do NOT truley know the lives of people who have been abused.

And I glad for the people you speak of, they have dealt with well and made the best of they're lives, They probably had extensive counciling and more. some people that is not so easy.

No love, my horrifed reaction is because this subject is personal to me! I wouldn't about the bible I am NOT Christian. My belief in the GODS and GODDESSES have given me strength when I needed it most. My belief is firmly rooted into Norse Paganism.
Where did I ever say that the gods are related to this? I didn't. YOU brought that up. I do not blame any gods for what happened to me and blame the perverted **** that did it!

So you have no idea!

 

[DrLeftover]

This conversation is over.

Thank you for your time.

 

[mrldii]

This conversation is over.

Thank you for your time.

I've never done it before - or seen it done before - so, I'm curious: how long does it take a poster in a thread to shutdown a thread that was created by another poster? So far, it's been almost 45 minutes, and I'm still able to post in it,

so it appears this promised "this conversation is over" has not yet happened. How much longer before your edict comes to pass?

 

[Rooster]

I cannot speak for the good Doctor...

But I took his last post as a commentary, not a statement of fact.

 

[DrLeftover]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not staff.

I was referring to the concept of having a conversation having degenerated into pointless bickering, name calling, and presumptions-

to which I will not be party.

Thank you

 

[Wonko]

Lets try and get back on topic, I still think mr Fry is more likely to be correct than incorrect there is just way to little actual hard core evidence to prove there is a god/Omnipresence and to say that it's because of some great master plan I just don't by into and have not since I was in my late teens.

 

[Dee]

I think the main part that causes concern is "who is to say that children being sexually abused is a bad thing?"

That is essentially why I found offense in the comments. The whole idea that something isn't technically bad because God has a plan and a reason for everything is rather sick, not because it's "wrong", but because not everyone believes in God and therefore cannot see the reason that is construed from His word. It may not be "bad" for some people (eg. a test of human strength/will/etc in which case that would be the reasoning), but for many, many people it is a very, very bad thing. And a lot of the very, very bad things--even if, going with the idea that God does exist--are still really very bad regardless of whether they have a reason behind them. This makes me wonder why any god or God would allow such a thing to happen, and why Stephen Fry's reasoning seems well placed.

 

[+paradox]

That is essentially why I found offense in the comments. The whole idea that something isn't technically bad because God has a plan and a reason for everything is rather sick, not because it's "wrong", but because not everyone believes in God and therefore cannot see the reason that is construed from His word. It may not be "bad" for some people (eg. a test of human strength/will/etc in which case that would be the reasoning), but for many, many people it is a very, very bad thing. And a lot of the very, very bad things--even if, going with the idea that God does exist--are still really very bad regardless of whether they have a reason behind them. This makes me wonder why any god or God would allow such a thing to happen, and why Stephen Fry's reasoning seems well placed.

because god gives everyone free will, thus there's an unlimited ways of life can be put in motion... it's simple, go left or right, or perhaps up...

 

[alakazam]

You're welcome.

Don't *make* me play secretary for you, again. If you can't remember what you type from post-to-post and/or are too lazy/too sickened by your own words to go back to find and read them for yourself,


perhaps a "Debate" forum isn't the best place for your *talents*.

I repeat: where did I say that there is no such thing as child abuse? You just quoted the part where I asked who is to say that child abuse is necessarily a bad thing? Read carefully: where. did. I. say. that. child. abuse. doesn't. exist?

Perhaps a forum isn't the best place for your *talents*, seeing how you have trouble comprehending what other people write.

And I glad for the people you speak of, they have dealt with well and made the best of they're lives, They probably had extensive counciling and more. some people that is not so easy.

Actually, they did not. Their parents didn't even know about it until they were in their late teen years. And they came from troubled families who could hardly afford food, much less counseling (by they way, that's ow it's spelled).

 

[mrldii]

I repeat: where did I say that there is no such thing as child abuse? You just quoted the part where I asked who is to say that child abuse is necessarily a bad thing? Read carefully: where. did. I. say. that. child. abuse. doesn't. exist?

Perhaps a forum isn't the best place for your *talents*, seeing how you have trouble comprehending what other people write.

You stated as such, when you stated that child "abuse" is not a "bad" thing. "Abuse" infers "bad", by mere definition OF the terms; by removing "bad" from "abuse", (child/self/system) "abuse" can NOT exist, as there is no longer anything "abusive" about it.


You're welcome, again.

Actually, they did not. Their parents didn't even know about it until they were in their late teen years. And they came from troubled families who could hardly afford food, much less counseling (by they way, that's ow* it's spelled).

* how



~Carry on...~