Ban Appeals?

[MrDawn]

We also don’t want to come across overly heavy handed as we don’t want members to be scared off in case they make an honest mistake. There needs to be that balance between dealbreakers of behaviours we don’t tolerate and being open to discussion in the event of a misunderstanding. Of course there’s a chance of gaslighting but for a legitimate member to feel they’ve been heard fairly is important for them to feel welcomed.

Some are, some aren’t. I don’t like to be too stern with members though. We don’y want to drive off well-intentioned members.

I definitely agree. No one likes a dictatorship. There needs to be room for flexibility and we have to give people leeway. Forums are not what they used to be so keeping an open mind, being empathetic, and handling things with care are important procedures.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

I definitely agree. No one likes a dictatorship. There needs to be room for flexibility and we have to give people leeway. Forums are not what they used to be so keeping an open mind, being empathetic, and handling things with care are important procedures.

Definitely, and also big moderation decisions should be made and appeals heard by a group of staff members and not just be solely one's decision.

 

[MrDawn]

Definitely, and also big moderation decisions should be made and appeals heard by a group of staff members and not just be solely one's decision.

or it should just be taken up with the owner of the site and let it be their decision.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

or it should just be taken up with the owner of the site and let it be their decision.

Yeah, that too. But a lot of the time the forum owner will get opinions of staff. It wouldn't be healthy for a site owner to make a decision against the rest of the site... although at the end of the day it's of course legally speaking their site, their rules

 

[Black Angel]

This isn’t an appeal but rather a request to be banned, as to me, an appeal suggests the sanction is unfair or harsh.

What if a member was to come back as a changed person after they’re matured?

How is it a sign of maturity if the person banned for immaturity keeps returning to the site that banned them? It is no more mature to be doing that anymore than it is for a person to refuse to take no for an answer.

In fact, this very practice literally is them not taking no for an answer but with respect to the place they've been banned from (or rejected.) The fact that they keep returning completely oblitherates their whole "I'm back and I've matured" argument. Both of these things can't be true for this reason.

You show your maturity, by respecting their wishes and staying away. Not by returning repeatedly and claiming as such, like an abuser always returning to their victim asking to be taken back so they can show how they have changed.

If everyone knows that it is a bad idea to take back an abuser with respect to dating, then why wouldn't that also apply to running a forum? The forum is a series of relationships because you are dealing with different people. So if the banned person really has matured, then why do they insist on returning to the very site whose occupants have shown them the door?

And in either case, they don't change, often times they get worse. The return is almost always a ruse to continue the abuse or worse.

If they are truly remorseful for what they have done and promise to be better, then why can't they do so elsewhere? The internet is both a big and small place in the sense that there are billions of people on it, but with respect to running a forum, then the online world is a lot smaller.

I mean, there may be a ton of people on this site, but there is a lot of overlap of members from other places.. so if that member has really matured, then they would respect the wishes of the site that banned them and go elsewhere. It isn't like they wouldn't run into the others there too.

Case in point, this forum. There are a lot of people here, that are also on FP and even on each others' forums. So if Member X was banned from here, then they could still be interacted with at other places. Nebulous wouldn't have to unban them, as he banned them for a reason.

I think that the so-called matured member is just an abusive narcissist that wants to pad their ego by returning to the site that banned them just to show that they can do what they want when they want. In the same way an abusive partner will always return to their victim to ask for another chance for the same reason and to show their victim that they can't escape.

If a person has really matured, then they should prove it by moving on. Otherwise, if the admin wanted them to return, then they wouldn't have been banned in the first place.

Overall, it is the admins decision whether or not to allow an abusive member back on to their site. If said abuser doesn't like those terms, then they are free to start their own site.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

How is it a sign of maturity if the person banned for immaturity keeps returning to the site that banned them? It is no more mature to be doing that anymore than it is for a person to refuse to take no for an answer.

In fact, this very practice literally is them not taking no for an answer but with respect to the place they've been banned from (or rejected.) The fact that they keep returning completely oblitherates their whole "I'm back and I've matured" argument. Both of these things can't be true for this reason.

You show your maturity, by respecting their wishes and staying away. Not by returning repeatedly and claiming as such, like an abuser always returning to their victim asking to be taken back so they can show how they have changed.

If everyone knows that it is a bad idea to take back an abuser with respect to dating, then why wouldn't that also apply to running a forum? The forum is a series of relationships because you are dealing with different people. So if the banned person really has matured, then why do they insist on returning to the very site whose occupants have shown them the door?

And in either case, they don't change, often times they get worse. The return is almost always a ruse to continue the abuse or worse.

If they are truly remorseful for what they have done and promise to be better, then why can't they do so elsewhere? The internet is both a big and small place in the sense that there are billions of people on it, but with respect to running a forum, then the online world is a lot smaller.

I mean, there may be a ton of people on this site, but there is a lot of overlap of members from other places.. so if that member has really matured, then they would respect the wishes of the site that banned them and go elsewhere. It isn't like they wouldn't run into the others there too.

Case in point, this forum. There are a lot of people here, that are also on FP and even on each others' forums. So if Member X was banned from here, then they could still be interacted with at other places. Nebulous wouldn't have to unban them, as he banned them for a reason.

I think that the so-called matured member is just an abusive narcissist that wants to pad their ego by returning to the site that banned them just to show that they can do what they want when they want. In the same way an abusive partner will always return to their victim to ask for another chance for the same reason and to show their victim that they can't escape.

If a person has really matured, then they should prove it by moving on. Otherwise, if the admin wanted them to return, then they wouldn't have been banned in the first place.

Overall, it is the admins decision whether or not to allow an abusive member back on to their site. If said abuser doesn't like those terms, then they are free to start their own site.

Of course returning repeatedly borders on harassment.

I’m talking about members who don’t abuse or spam the appeal system. I remember you mentioning a member evading their ban being upfront with you and you let them stay, right?

Since @Nebulous was mentioned let’s ask do you have a ban appeal process in place? Would you unban a member if they request such? Why/why not?

 

[Black Angel]

Neb was mentioned as a hypothetical example.

And to return after you have been banned regardless of that person's personal reason for doing so is continued abuse in and of itself. By doing so, they are putting what they want, ahead of what was the right thing to do.. which is to stay away.

In this context, I look at owning a forum as being akin to owning a house or an apartment. This person came over and disrespected you and the people you were hosting at your place, after repeated warnings, you have shown them the door and asked them to leave and not to return.

They do so.

And now, they are still on your doorstep ringing the bell trying to get back in after being escorted out.

They have returned with a mustache, blonde wig, red wig, and even tried to fake their appearance to get back in, each time claiming to have matured. And you have recognized them every time they came back.

Is that person being respectful of your wishes? Are they showing you any evidence of maturity when they do this?

No.

The only condition a banned member should/could return is by being invited back by the owner of the site themselves.

Do I have a ban appeal process? No.

I always have a good reason for penalizing those who deserve it. The only reason I have ever unbanned or reinvited someone back to the forum is regarding COPPA.

Granted, this was mostly on my brother's old forum that I ran while he focused on his series and well, growing up, since he was still a teen himself. I have literally had to take over whenever he was grounded lol, but while we always used the term "technical difficulties" as a running joke, everyone knew that it meant he was grounded.. lol

Anyway, my forum has been 16+ on free hosting since I opened 19 years ago, but only since 2014 did it become 18+ only because I was on paid hosting, or about to be, and I had a lot of leeway with the owner of JFB. I was always honest and invited him to look over the content in question, so that he could determine what was ok and I left a quote of his response in a post with other service admins I did the same with, even if i wasnt hosted with them. This was so I'd be in the clear regarding post exchanges with forums on these hosts. It is still on my forum to this day even though I don't really advertise anymore.

And now my forum is 21+ because I have added discussions about weed and stuff.. so, I have never really had an issue with COPPA at my place as often as I did with my brother's forum. But as it were, the members understood that they needed to be 16+ on my forum and they respected that because they knew me and trusted me.

That said, most of those bans I really felt bad about because in literally 99% of those cases (not being hyperbolic in the least here, these were all COPPA bans that didn't include the "5-Account-Wonder-Who-Really-Had-12-Accounts-Including-His-"Family")

I honestly felt bad about banning them because they were legitimately good members who not only contributed, but also helped other members too and were in most cases, more mature than many of the older members there, including some staff. I felt bad becauae aside from being underaged, they didnt do anything bad. But the law is the law and so my hand was forced on the matter upon discovery. I mean we had our suspicions but we couldn't really do anything unless they had proof. Otherwise, if we didn't know, then we didn't know.

When I did have to ban someone, I approached them honestly about the situation and I explained that I had no choice on the matter as it was the law, and after I banned them, I kept in contact with them on messenger (usually MSN) so that they could let me know when they were of age and I would send out an email to those in the group who had previously been banned, informing them that they had been unbanned and reinstated to their original groups. I did this for the younger members that were still banned by adding a footnote reminder of the next members who would soon be 13 and when they could return. And they would return, apologize for lying about their age and they went on to posting as if nothing had happened.

But that was on my brother's forum where most of his demographic was 13-21. When his older members felt like they were outgrowing his forum, they joined mine because they genuinely liked me as an admin.. even if they had been banned by me before..

That said though, the reason I dont have s ban appeal process, is because I am clear and concise regarding my expectations of the members. They know from the get-go what will and wont be tolerated. The veterans of both sites know this because they know me from both places and how I do things.

So for that reason, it is why I expect more of them. I have dealt with people who were genuine assholes and abusers on my forum and even sexual harrassment which is why I had a tendency to hide my gender back then. I had one dude send me a dick pic shortly after finding out that I was female and I had previously helped him with his pc issues. It hit me out of the blue, and otherwise he was a good member, but he crossed the line and was instantly banned, and is still banned to this day from every forum I had since then. So in that case I did keep him banned across sites.

Now I have also dealt with those who got in trouble repeatedly, and when called out, they claimed that it was because they had mental health issues, learning disability, different race.. (one actually tried to play the race card, now knowing that my brother and I were Black, yeah, that was a fun day.. lol) and I also have dealt with people who tried to justify their assholery by claiming it was because they were Christian and that they were evangelical.

That was a fun day too, and when we called them out on their bullshit, whether it was because they played the race or faith card as a reason for their behavior, their response was "why didn't you tell me that you were Black or were Christian" and our response was the same, what we are or what our religion is is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that, there are many people here who have mental and learning disabilities, staff included, and we have people here of various races, classes and religions, but they didn't act like you did, and this is why you are being penalized. Once they realized that their excuses didn't fly and they had no justification for their actions, they accepted their punishment.

If the member was respectful of that and didn't try to return and was genuinely remorseful, then sometimes their suspension ended early, but that was always left up to my discretion and it was never known outside of staff.

And yes, we did have a member who was banned for evasion, among other things, but saw me on another forum (I think it was FP or IFSZ) because they recognized me and reached out privately and apologized, but there had been years that had passed and so, they were allowed to return. They were an adult at that point.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Neb was mentioned as a hypothetical example.

And to return after you have been banned regardless of that person's personal reason for doing so is continued abuse in and of itself. By doing so, they are putting what they want, ahead of what was the right thing to do.. which is to stay away.

In this context, I look at owning a forum as being akin to owning a house or an apartment. This person came over and disrespected you and the people you were hosting at your place, after repeated warnings, you have shown them the door and asked them to leave and not to return.

They do so.

And now, they are still on your doorstep ringing the bell trying to get back in after being escorted out.

They have returned with a mustache, blonde wig, red wig, and even tried to fake their appearance to get back in, each time claiming to have matured. And you have recognized them every time they came back.

Is that person being respectful of your wishes? Are they showing you any evidence of maturity when they do this?

No.

The only condition a banned member should/could return is by being invited back by the owner of the site themselves.

Do I have a ban appeal process? No.

I always have a good reason for penalizing those who deserve it. The only reason I have ever unbanned or reinvited someone back to the forum is regarding COPPA.

Granted, this was mostly on my brother's old forum that I ran while he focused on his series and well, growing up, since he was still a teen himself. I have literally had to take over whenever he was grounded lol, but while we always used the term "technical difficulties" as a running joke, everyone knew that it meant he was grounded.. lol

Anyway, my forum has been 16+ on free hosting since I opened 19 years ago, but only since 2014 did it become 18+ only because I was on paid hosting, or about to be, and I had a lot of leeway with the owner of JFB. I was always honest and invited him to look over the content in question, so that he could determine what was ok and I left a quote of his response in a post with other service admins I did the same with, even if i wasnt hosted with them. This was so I'd be in the clear regarding post exchanges with forums on these hosts. It is still on my forum to this day even though I don't really advertise anymore.

And now my forum is 21+ because I have added discussions about weed and stuff.. so, I have never really had an issue with COPPA at my place as often as I did with my brother's forum. But as it were, the members understood that they needed to be 16+ on my forum and they respected that because they knew me and trusted me.

That said, most of those bans I really felt bad about because in literally 99% of those cases (not being hyperbolic in the least here, these were all COPPA bans that didn't include the "5-Account-Wonder-Who-Really-Had-12-Accounts-Including-His-"Family")

I honestly felt bad about banning them because they were legitimately good members who not only contributed, but also helped other members too and were in most cases, more mature than many of the older members there, including some staff. I felt bad becauae aside from being underaged, they didnt do anything bad. But the law is the law and so my hand was forced on the matter upon discovery. I mean we had our suspicions but we couldn't really do anything unless they had proof. Otherwise, if we didn't know, then we didn't know.

When I did have to ban someone, I approached them honestly about the situation and I explained that I had no choice on the matter as it was the law, and after I banned them, I kept in contact with them on messenger (usually MSN) so that they could let me know when they were of age and I would send out an email to those in the group who had previously been banned, informing them that they had been unbanned and reinstated to their original groups. I did this for the younger members that were still banned by adding a footnote reminder of the next members who would soon be 13 and when they could return. And they would return, apologize for lying about their age and they went on to posting as if nothing had happened.

But that was on my brother's forum where most of his demographic was 13-21. When his older members felt like they were outgrowing his forum, they joined mine because they genuinely liked me as an admin.. even if they had been banned by me before..

That said though, the reason I dont have s ban appeal process, is because I am clear and concise regarding my expectations of the members. They know from the get-go what will and wont be tolerated. The veterans of both sites know this because they know me from both places and how I do things.

So for that reason, it is why I expect more of them. I have dealt with people who were genuine assholes and abusers on my forum and even sexual harrassment which is why I had a tendency to hide my gender back then. I had one dude send me a dick pic shortly after finding out that I was female and I had previously helped him with his pc issues. It hit me out of the blue, and otherwise he was a good member, but he crossed the line and was instantly banned, and is still banned to this day from every forum I had since then. So in that case I did keep him banned across sites.

Now I have also dealt with those who got in trouble repeatedly, and when called out, they claimed that it was because they had mental health issues, learning disability, different race.. (one actually tried to play the race card, now knowing that my brother and I were Black, yeah, that was a fun day.. lol) and I also have dealt with people who tried to justify their assholery by claiming it was because they were Christian and that they were evangelical.

That was a fun day too, and when we called them out on their bullshit, whether it was because they played the race or faith card as a reason for their behavior, their response was "why didn't you tell me that you were Black or were Christian" and our response was the same, what we are or what our religion is is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that, there are many people here who have mental and learning disabilities, staff included, and we have people here of various races, classes and religions, but they didn't act like you did, and this is why you are being penalized. Once they realized that their excuses didn't fly and they had no justification for their actions, they accepted their punishment.

If the member was respectful of that and didn't try to return and was genuinely remorseful, then sometimes their suspension ended early, but that was always left up to my discretion and it was never known outside of staff.

And yes, we did have a member who was banned for evasion, among other things, but saw me on another forum (I think it was FP or IFSZ) because they recognized me and reached out privately and apologized, but there had been years that had passed and so, they were allowed to return. They were an adult at that point.

Makes sense. Do you not feel there’s a difference between ban evasion and a polite request to be let back in?

Or do you feel ppl should simply accept the consequences of their behaviours and only return if you personally invite them back in?

I respect your opinion regardless 😊

Also was that an exception, or in general would you ban a member who’s been banned from other forums?

 

[Black Angel]

Thank you for the respect, I truly appreciate it.

Anyway, polite or not, the very fact that they keep returning after you banned them is still them being disrespectful of your wishes.

To put it in the context of dating, you already told this person that you want them to leave and never want to see them again. They left, and you closed the door.

But now they are still on your porch knocking on the doors and windows asking to be let back in.

Are they being respectful of your wishes by doing this?

No. They are not. You asked them to leave and they are still there.

Are they showing you any sign of maturity when they do this?

No. They are not. A sign of maturity would be them respecting your rules the first time around and NOT getting kicked out or banned after they violated your rules 3x to warrant getting kicked out in the first place.

So, by the very fact of them still returning or refusing to leave and [politely] asking to be let back in is still being disrespectful of your wishes. How polite they were when doing so, is irrelevant.

And, in the context of dating, this would be a huge red flag and a possible sign that the person you are dealing with, might be a few cards short of a full deck.

This person you banned never cared about the rules from jump, and just wanted to do what they wanted to do regardless of what you had to say or felt about it. Which is why they were banned in the first place.

And no, the 12 account person was 9 and they never returned after we threatened to tell their REAL mother about what they were posting on a forum meant for teens when they showed up on their 12th account pretending to be their own mother.

The person that reached out to me was 17 when they were banned but 22 when they reached out and apologized. I told my brother and our staff about it and they agreed that he could come back because he apologized and 5 years had already passed. When this person was banned, he didn't try to come back, he stayed away.

And I previously covered whether or not I would ban someone that has been banned from other forums in my earlier posts. That said, I did once come across a member that had been banned on nearly every forum I had done a post exchange with.

I ended up finding out that that member had been spamming throughout the forum and was pm advertising. And I noticed that this particular member had asked me for a post exchange so I accepted, but kept their url in my admin notes, so that if this person did the same, then I would add it to my word filters.

Well, this person kept up with their side of the bargain and their posts were actually good, but then they made the mistake of pming my husband, and bot account with their url and so I added it to my word filters. When they tried to change their sig, they found that their url didn't work and when they asked me why, I told them that it was because they spammed my husband with their link and it was added to my word filters and that they will now be banned for pm spam..

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Thank you for the respect, I truly appreciate it.

Anyway, polite or not, the very fact that they keep returning after you banned them is still them being disrespectful of your wishes.

To put it in the context of dating, you already told this person that you want them to leave and never want to see them again. They left, and you closed the door.

But now they are still on your porch knocking on the doors and windows asking to be let back in.

Are they being respectful of your wishes by doing this?

No. They are not. You asked them to leave and they are still there.

Are they showing you any sign of maturity when they do this?

No. They are not. A sign of maturity would be them respecting your rules the first time around and NOT getting kicked out or banned after they violated your rules 3x to warrant getting kicked out in the first place.

So, by the very fact of them still returning or refusing to leave and [politely] asking to be let back in is still being disrespectful of your wishes. How polite they were when doing so, is irrelevant.

And, in the context of dating, this would be a huge red flag and a possible sign that the person you are dealing with, might be a few cards short of a full deck.

This person you banned never cared about the rules from jump, and just wanted to do what they wanted to do regardless of what you had to say or felt about it. Which is why they were banned in the first place.

And no, the 12 account person was 9 and they never returned after we threatened to tell their REAL mother about what they were posting on a forum meant for teens when they showed up on their 12th account pretending to be their own mother.

The person that reached out to me was 17 when they were banned but 22 when they reached out and apologized. I told my brother and our staff about it and they agreed that he could come back because he apologized and 5 years had already passed. When this person was banned, he didn't try to come back, he stayed away.

And I previously covered whether or not I would ban someone that has been banned from other forums in my earlier posts. That said, I did once come across a member that had been banned on nearly every forum I had done a post exchange with.

I ended up finding out that that member had been spamming throughout the forum and was pm advertising. And I noticed that this particular member had asked me for a post exchange so I accepted, but kept their url in my admin notes, so that if this person did the same, then I would add it to my word filters.

Well, this person kept up with their side of the bargain and their posts were actually good, but then they made the mistake of pming my husband, and bot account with their url and so I added it to my word filters. When they tried to change their sig, they found that their url didn't work and when they asked me why, I told them that it was because they spammed my husband with their link and it was added to my word filters and that they will now be banned for pm spam..

Thanks for sharing your POV!

Agreed, I understand why you feel that asking to be let back in the near future is immature and suggests the member either doesn’t understand or respect the reason they are banned.

Of course it’s a different story if the member asks to be let back in after decades have passed by provided they stayed away during that time. As you explained, there are always exceptions to every rule, especially if the member wasn’t an adult at the time.