Gun Control

[Jazzy]

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[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]There are tons and tons of easily prevented gun accidents that happen each year.[/background]



[background=rgb(250, 246, 237)][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]People love to make the comparison saying that well cars can be used to kill people too. Well, a thug can hijack a car, but you still have to take driving education or pass a test before you can get your license. It should be the same deal with guns.[/background]

[background=rgb(246, 246, 238)]If we want to reduce accidental deaths of children, it obviously would make more sense to spend the money on measures that will reduce car accidents, not gun accidents, because car accidents kill twenty times as many children. No one is proposing to spend $15 million to buy back cars in hopes that would reduce the number of accidents significantly. Since so many car accidents are caused by drunk drivers, a program to reduce drunk-driving would make a lot more sense. [/background]



[background=rgb(246, 246, 238)]http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/killers-cars-vs-guns/[/background]



[background=rgb(246, 246, 238)]Can someone please provide me with stats that guns kill more more people than (to list a few):[/background]

1. ​Smoking cigarettes
   
2. Swimming pool drownings
   
3. Drunk Driving
   
4. Motor Vehicle accidents ( including motorcycles and RV's)
   

Fun fact according to the FBI: The number one choice for a weapon is a baseball bat.

 

[DrLeftover]

There should be bat ownership classes.



Oh, and classes about the proper use of a knife.



Axe owner registration.



And Ice Picks should be outlawed:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=8678991

 

[Fatal Dawn]

Fun fact according to the FBI: The number one choice for a weapon is a baseball bat.

I would be appreciative if you could provide me with the source of this fun fact. I have tried searching this up to no avail. I'm also interested in knowing which type of crimes this specific weapon was applicable to (murder, assault, burglary, etc.)



In terms of homicides, this seems almost contradictory to FBI research. In the FBI, Supplementary Homicide Reports in the years of 1976 leading all the way up to 2005, the use of firearms (particularly concealable guns like handguns) far outweighed the number of homicides committed by blunt objects like baseball bats.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj...b/pdf/htius.pdf

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.../weapagetab.cfm

More law enforcement officers have been killed by firearms (especially concealable handguns) than by any other type of weapon. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj...e/leok.cfm#leok





The following year in 2007 was supposedly the last time the FBI did such a detailed study of the type. Firearms (assuming handguns and all other guns combined) were the most commonly used murder weapons nationally, accounting for 14,831 murders that year. The use of stabbing weapons again to dropped to 1,796. The use of blunt objects (like bats) in murders, was even lower and not even comparable to the number of murders committed by firearms that year. A familiar trend the following year in 2009 as firearms (again, especially handguns) were the most common weapon used by males to murder females. (http://www.vpc.org/s...es/wmmw2011.pdf, see pgs. 7-9)

 

[Jazzy]

The fun fact was something I read while viewing this forum ( it's post # 34 )



Just found out that all doctors should be banned as well.

 

[DrLeftover]

The number one cause of 'death by injury' isn't guns, bats, chainsaws, or even ice picks.



Story:

The Centers for Disease Control reports that the number one cause of death by injury in the US is now poisoning, especially drug poisoning. The report also says 9 out of every 10 poisoning deaths are now attributed to drugs.



In the past 30 years the number of yearly drug deaths has increased to from 6,100 in 1980 to more than 36,000 a year now.

http://www2.tricitie...ing-ar-1640103/

CDC injury page:



http://www.cdc.gov/injury/

 

[Sinon]

I didn't even know poisoning was considered an injury.

 

[DrLeftover]

The fact remains that swimming pools kill more kids than firearms.



Yet you don't see a national campaign to ban them to protect the children.

 

[Jazzy]

[background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]there has been talk in order to prompt lawmakers into taking action in addressing the issue of gun control in America.[/background]

This isn't about trying to stop violence. This is about them trying to come up with a new tax. Yeah, let's tax the shit out of guns owners and falsely call it gun control. Hell, they tax everything else so why not tax gun owners too? This will get shot down (pun intended) if they ever tried this.

 

[Temerit]

[background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]Just found out that all [/background]doctors[background=rgb(250, 246, 237)] should be banned as well.

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[background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]According to what logic? I would take issue with the statistic of deaths caused by doctors and are you just going to ignore the far greater number of lives saved by medical doctors?[/background]



[background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]

[/background]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]The fact remains that swimming pools kill more kids than firearms.

[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]What about adults?[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]The are regulations concerning public pool safety (which I would equate to carrying a gun anywhere outside a private residence).[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]

[/background]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]There should be bat ownership classes.[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]Oh, and classes about the proper use of a knife.[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]Axe owner registration.[/background]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]And Ice Picks should be outlawed:

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[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]Difference is, all of these things have a purpose besides ending a life.[/background]

 

[DrLeftover]

If the number of crimes prevented by law abiding citizens using their own legally owned firearm is ignored in the course of this discussion, then the good done by physicians can be as well.



http://www.cato.org/guns-and-self-defense/



But of course, CATO is a conservative think tank, so they are biased, their conclusions are wrong, and they must be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Temerit]

The numbers on self-defense with guns are notorious for being falsified.

 

[DrLeftover]

Of course.

 

[Fatal Dawn]

The fun fact was something I read while viewing this forum ( it's post # 34 )



Just found out that all doctors should be banned as well.

It's a fairly absurd comparison. For starters, the intent is different. I would not make the comparison between a criminal using a gun and a doctor being incompetent. The sheer amount of patients doctors see, as well as the many who are already in poor health, also needs to be taken into consideration. I've also heard that medical (malpractice) accidents injure more people than automobile accidents, what does that imply (if anything) about car accidents? Lies, damned lies, and statistics: beware those who use statistics misleadingly.

This isn't about trying to stop violence. This is about them trying to come up with a new tax. Yeah, let's tax the shit out of guns owners and falsely call it gun control. Hell, they tax everything else so why not tax gun owners too? This will get shot down (pun intended) if they ever tried this.

Please explain. In all honesty, this is the first I'm hearing of taxation for gun owners. I have heard of taxes on manufacturers and dealers who try to distribute certain firearms.



Moreover, which piece of legislation in the history of gun control in the United States can you cite as reference for evidence that the government is trying to tax gun owners under the guise of tighter reforms. I assume you are not referring to either of these pieces of legislation: Armed Career Criminal Act, the Firearms Owners Protection Act, the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act, the Crime Control Act of 1990, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, or the Brady bill.

The fact remains that swimming pools kill more kids than firearms.



Yet you don't see a national campaign to ban them to protect the children.

Preventable injury/death is not equitable to homicide. There are a very small number of gun deaths that were accidental in proportion to those involving suicide and homicide. And there are direct correlations between gun availability and increased homicide.

http://www.hsph.harv...eath/index.html

 

[Sinon]

Which one has a use beyond killing people? Hint: You don't need a background check to buy one of them.

 

[Fatal Dawn]

That graphic is incorrect. As I've already stated, firearms account for more homicides than any other weapon in the U.S.

http://www.fbi.gov/a.../10shrtbl08.xls



Unless the graphic is strictly referring to the specific types of firearms pictured. The largest portion of firearm homicides (68.5%) are committed by concealable firearms like handguns.

 

[Temerit]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(250, 246, 237)]And please, tell me when criminals began obeying laws. I believe, by definition, criminals aren't much concerned with laws.

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Shit, you're right. What were we thinking making murder illegal? No sense in that.



For the record Smooth, I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't be able to own a gun.



God forbid we discuss the topic though.

 

[DrLeftover]

Damn.



Me and T are on the same side again.



Even I agree that some restrictions are necessary.



Although I do remember somewhere along the line a total prohibition was mentioned by somebody else. But I don't have time to go back through and look for it.

 

[Sinon]

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Hmmm....let me think about that.....

The one that can be used to hunt deer or for home protection?

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Hmm. Last I checked, nobody uses M16A2s or AK-47s to hunt deer. And home protection still falls under violent use only. Even if you're not shooting to kill, you're shooting to injure. So its sole purpose is still harm, so it's still purely a weapon, as opposed to a baseball bat being used as a weapon and hey...to play baseball with. Since your argument seems to be based solely on the graphic posted, I'm ignoring the various hunting rifles and such. Considering as well that the majority of this discussion is about concealed arms and all. Not sure when I last saw someone walking around with an M249 under their coat.



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Your argument is old and tired and one I've heard thousands of times before in many gun debates, Shiro. The point is, if the government wants to make tougher laws about owning - LEGALLY owning - guns, they better start making laws about baseball bats, crow bars, hammers, and even, if it is allowed to go far enough, people's HANDS can be used to kill others.

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Yes. They want to tighten the rules for something which is used SOLELY AS A WEAPON. You're not really understanding my point. GUNS ARE WEAPONS. HAMMERS AND CROWBARS ARE TOOLS. They have a purpose beyond harming others. I can use a hammer to crack someone's skull open, yes. But the main purpose for using a hammer is to hammer nails. The main purpose of a gun is to shoot things.

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And please, tell me when criminals began obeying laws. I believe, by definition, criminals aren't much concerned with laws.

And one more time.... Guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people.

Nice try, but...been there, done that.

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So wait, now you're resorting to the criminals don't follow the law argument? And you berated me for using tired arguments, lol. You're right, criminals don't follow the law. That's what makes them criminals in the first place. By that argument, could it not therefore be put forward that laws altogether should be scrapped? After all, us law-abiding citizens are just getting fucked by the government tightening their grip. The reason for tightening laws is that, as shown in the recent shooting in Aurora, all the equipment used was LEGAL. An assault rifle, a shotgun, handguns, all completely legal. That's why they want to tighten the laws regarding weapons. To make it harder for nuts like that to get ahold of them.



And yes, people kill people. Glad you realise that. But regardless, that doesn't mean carrying equipment that would help you harm or kill should be a good idea. Swords are illegal. Walk down the street carrying a claymore and you'll be tazed. Why are guns different?

 

[DrLeftover]

This reminds me of the vegan discussion I have with a woman at work every so often.



Awhile back she went back to the thing about she won't eat anything with a face. So I asked her how she liked her sea cucumber. She never mentioned that line again. But while she doesn't think eating meat should be banned, she is in favor of a surcharge on blood food. I reminded her that plants have their own kind of blood, she didn't see the humor in the statement.



Oh well.





Over the years, that discussion between us has become pointless, but we still run through it once in awhile just for the hell of it.

 

[Sinon]

There's a really simple way of arguing with a vegan. Just point out that, as a meat-eater you're reducing the methane in the atmosphere by eating more cows, whereas vegans are only eating plants, which reduces the amount of oxygen-creators.



It's a flawed argument, but most aren't smart enough to notice lol