Should low quality university degrees be restricted?

[~ True Legend ~]

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has pledged to crack down on "rip-off" degrees that do not lead to graduate jobs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005

Personally? Not sure how I feel about this. I definitely think there should be more education on career prospects though. I was discouraged from pursuing software developer at an all girls' school due to competition. I feel gender stereotypes need to be eradicated and better education should be given to those meant to advise! I say software development is one of the best fields to get into, as the career path covers so many industries potentially.

Under the plans, independent regulator the Office for Students (OfS) will be asked to limit the number of students that universities can recruit to courses that do not have "good outcomes" for students.

The government said this would include courses that have high drop-out rates or have a low proportion of students going on to professional jobs.

Nearly three-in-10 graduates do not progress into highly-skilled jobs or further study 15 months after graduating, according to the OfS.
The OfS already has the power to investigate and sanction universities which offer degrees falling below minimum performance thresholds - but the new rules would require the regulator to limit student numbers for those courses.

The current thresholds for full-time students doing a first degree are for:

• 80% of students to continue their studies
• 75% of students to complete their course
• 60% of students to go on to further study, professional work, or other positive outcomes, within 15 months of graduating

Universities UK said the UK had the highest completion rates of any OECD country and overall satisfaction rates were high.

"However, it is right that the regulatory framework is there as a backstop to protect student interests in the very small proportion of instances where quality needs to be improved," a spokeswoman said.

I know ppl who just want to study to enrich their knowledge and there are some who can afford the fee upfront. I don't think they should be prohibited from doing so, provided they pay upfront. Because this is not using taxpayers' money since the students are not taking a loan. Sure, one could argue the privilege gap due to the wealth gap but that could be argued about masters' degrees too where employers are not willing to fund such.

:Labour's shadow education secretary Bridget Phillipson said the announcement was "an attack on the aspirations of young people".
Liberal Democrat education spokesperson Munira Wilson said the prime minister was "out of ideas" and had "dug up a policy the Conservatives announced and then unannounced twice over".

She said: "Universities don't want this. It's a cap on aspiration, making it harder for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds to go on to further study."

The government also announced it would reduce the maximum fees universities can charge for classroom-based foundation-year courses, from £9,250 to £5,760. In 2021/22, 29,080 students were studying a foundation degree.

Foundation year courses are designed to help prepare students for degrees with specific entry requirements or knowledge, such as medicine and veterinary sciences.

However, the government said research suggested too many people were encouraged to take a foundation year in some subjects like business, where it was not necessary.

This is great news for those who struggled earlier on in their studies. Hopefully this won't decentivise universities from offering these courses.

 

[Scarlet Rose]

I would be somewhat skeptical of this move, especially given the graph that came with BBC article and trends within universities. The university is meant to have the dual focus of preparing people for participation within society and for the production of academic research. While getting employment is a major part of the participation in society element for students, that is not the entirety of that function. It should be empowering people to more fully participate within society beyond the attainment of employment. Things like critical thinking, research skills and the ability to communicate information acquired can be put towards so many directions. A society where these skills are more widespread should have a much more positive and beneficial public space. They will improve the quality of community at all levels. The second role relating to the production of research is where I am more troubled by potential implications of these proposed cuts. As I can imagine them being more targeted at the social sciences and humanities. Something which has been an issue for decades now and has only been increasing in intensity these past few years. The social sciences and humanities can often provide research from the perspective of a social critic which analyzes and critiques society itself. There have always been efforts to minimize and neuter this role of the universities. There was, after all, once a man called Socrates. Throughout history those in power do not appreciate when academics critique them. We have seen this with the wealthy using their funds to sponsor students and universities within their own countries and around the world. Colonialism and the transition to decolonization involved a lot of it. To try and influence the ways that the colonies functioned and developed by educating their ruling class. We have also seen it numerous times with funding of the social sciences themselves. The US Defense department funding social science research is only the latest in a long history. But despite these efforts at controlling the discourse there have been critical voices within and increasingly we have seen a willingness to challenge hierarchy and societal power imbalances. Which unsurprisingly has been met with efforts from those in power to censor and defund the critics. I worry that this is simply a step towards that goal.

 

[Black Angel]

I think this is more or less targeted to the for-profit, fly-by-night schools that promise a lot but deliver very little. (like Trump University, et. al, for example)

In that case, I agree that they should go after these schools. So many students have been swindled by these schools.. not only do they pay much more in tuition than a regular 2 year college, but the degrees they end up with are often useless.

I know someone who nearly got screwed themselves.. They attended a school that claimed to allow them to earn their GED while studying for their degree in college. They had a rough upbringing, and had to drop out of high school in their senior year because they were homeless, and had to find a job to work, which they did. Once everything got settled for them, they saw an ad for this school and they decided to go for it.

They ended up majoring in Office Technologies, which they thought was about computers, and was told that it was like Computer Science, which they loved, so they went for it.. they ended up attending for about 3 or 4 semesters, and after about $18,000 spent and 28 credits, they still had no GED because out of the semesters they attended, only 2 classes were GED courses.. the others were just electives and the only thing related to their major was the computer classes they attended, and it was basically secretarial studies, rather than computer science and "Intro to College" which was a freshmen requisite.

To make matter worse, the school was set to shut down because the students who graduated, not only had a useless degree, but there were no jobs that would hire them, and the second school they tried transferring their credits to for a bachelors, did NOT recognize their associates, so, if they, for example, majored in Criminal Justice, and expected to transfer their associates, for a bachelor in the same major at John Jay College, then they wouldn't be able to do so unless, they attended a CUNY school for their CJ associates.. and then transfer to another CUNY or SUNY school for the bachelors.

My friend, would have been screwed had they not followed my advice, to take their GED themselves, and then try and change their major to Computer Science at a CUNY school, since their current school had just gotten that new course that Fall, and with it, they announced yet another tuition increase. My friend was up until that point, paying $4k per trimester (so it was $12k for the calendar year) and if he attended after that Fall, he'd have to pay $6.5k. So my friend jumped ship, and as soon as they followed my advice, that same school announced that it was going to shut down because of some financial and legal troubles they were having. Most of the student body were given financial aid that they weren't qualified to receive and the bursars office mismanaged everything, and to make matters worse, they had to pay back their aid as soon as they graduated just like it was with those who got regular student loans.

My friend is out of his $18k, but he has his GED, and his bachelors in Business Administration from St. John's University. He was able to take about half of his 28 credits to CUNY La Guardia and get his associates and then he transferred to St. Johns for his bachelors.

He was one of the lucky ones, but many, many students and faculty were screwed.

That said, if this is not the case, and this is just an example of the wealthy and powerful being uncomfortable with the fact that other classes are trying to work their way up the caste system, then that is fucked up, and this should not happen.

And it could be yet another example of how the powerful truly hate and resent those with less and seek to make life as painful as possible for them. It's exactly like the bullshit that is going on here now..

 

[Scarlet Rose]

@Black Angel I had also been wondering whether it was targeting fraudulent institutions like that as well. Which as you covered are extremely unethical and predatory. It amazes me that they can remain legal given how they are scams. It seems there is a fine line and some can skate by on technicalities whereas those that are more brazen such as Trump University get legal action. Although even Prager University troubles me in how they disingenuously use the word university in their title. But it does seem that it is more targeted at specific disciplines and degrees. Primarily it would be social sciences and humanities which will be getting the cuts to their funding. We are currently going through that in New Zealand as well, with universities proposing large department cuts to staff.

 

[Black Angel]

@Black Angel I had also been wondering whether it was targeting fraudulent institutions like that as well. Which as you covered are extremely unethical and predatory. It amazes me that they can remain legal given how they are scams. It seems there is a fine line and some can skate by on technicalities whereas those that are more brazen such as Trump University get legal action. Although even Prager University troubles me in how they disingenuously use the word university in their title. But it does seem that it is more targeted at specific disciplines and degrees. Primarily it would be social sciences and humanities which will be getting the cuts to their funding. We are currently going through that in New Zealand as well, with universities proposing large department cuts to staff.

Yep.. I understand and agree completely. Its like Fox News, disingenuously using "News" in their title even though legally they are an Entertainment Network and have argued in court that no one of reasonable intelligence would believe anything they say on the air.. especially since it is for entertainment. They seriously and successfully argued this before the SCOTUS..

And yeah cutting the Arts and Humanities is most defintely par for the course.. someone, somewhere in power is uncomfortable with the lower classes rising up to better their lives.. and they are trying to make sure that doesn't happen. They did that here, and then they started dumbing down the curriculum even further, and now they are just pushing full steam ahead.. on the anti-intellectual agenda..

But one thing is clear, an educated populace is unfit for enslavement. They can't enslave an entire population when dealing with intelligent people who think critically and so the best thing for them to do would be to outright ban or restrict the teaching of things that encourage critical thinking and embrace intelligence. This is why the true history of this country and its people are under attack as we speak.. and it'll only get worse if we do nothing. And because our country continues to be an example for others.. (for better or for worse) we can expect other countries to follow suit.

I will never understand why those with money and power hate those without it as much as they do. I honestly think it is because they are bored and just want to watch the world burn..

 

[Jayson]

Maybe they should be if taxpayers are paying the tuition. However, if that's not the case, then we could be holding people back. Well, I mean that there is more to a degree then apparent jobs available. For instance, a philosophy undergraduate with a large social media following has more chances than an average one.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

You raise interesting points and I see both sides to it. The government are interested in boosting employment prospects but we're not considering that students may want to study just to enrich themselves. In fact my best friend wants to do this.

Personally? I think schools could do a better job at educating students on what further education would benefit them and the types of jobs available at the end of it. 17-18 year olds can be immature and not consider the competition and pay prospects ahead, and then regret it, especially in times like we are in now. But ultimately it should be the student's decision. I definitely think places should only be limited for those who can't pay upfront and therefore need to take out a student loan, though.

I get the other side of things though - while ppl have the right to educate themselves on subjects of interest, it's not really worth spending so much tuition on when they could do a much cheaper, if not free, online course or watch documentaries or read on such, while saving the time and stress on assignments and exam study. There are so many online forums and discord groups ppl can join these days to connect to ppl with common interests.

Maybe they should be if taxpayers are paying the tuition. However, if that's not the case, then we could be holding people back. Well, I mean that there is more to a degree then apparent jobs available. For instance, a philosophy undergraduate with a large social media following has more chances than an average one.

Understandable, but there are other ways as noted above to connect with like-minded ppl and expand your social network..

 

[Jayson]

You raise interesting points and I see both sides to it. The government are interested in boosting employment prospects but we're not considering that students may want to study just to enrich themselves. In fact my best friend wants to do this.

Personally? I think schools could do a better job at educating students on what further education would benefit them and the types of jobs available at the end of it. 17-18 year olds can be immature and not consider the competition and pay prospects ahead, and then regret it, especially in times like we are in now. But ultimately it should be the student's decision. I definitely think places should only be limited for those who can't pay upfront and therefore need to take out a student loan, though.

I get the other side of things though - while ppl have the right to educate themselves on subjects of interest, it's not really worth spending so much tuition on when they could do a much cheaper, if not free, online course or watch documentaries or read on such, while saving the time and stress on assignments and exam study. There are so many online forums and discord groups ppl can join these days to connect to ppl with common interests.


Understandable, but there are other ways as noted above to connect with like-minded ppl and expand your social network..

Ultimately, it takes very aggressive people to go the next step after graduation.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Ultimately, it takes very aggressive people to go the next step after graduation.

Not sure what ya mean, I think everyone wants a job after spending their time studing

 

[Scarlet Rose]

Yep.. I understand and agree completely. Its like Fox News, disingenuously using "News" in their title even though legally they are an Entertainment Network and have argued in court that no one of reasonable intelligence would believe anything they say on the air.. especially since it is for entertainment. They seriously and successfully argued this before the SCOTUS..
And yeah cutting the Arts and Humanities is most defintely par for the course.. someone, somewhere in power is uncomfortable with the lower classes rising up to better their lives.. and they are trying to make sure that doesn't happen. They did that here, and then they started dumbing down the curriculum even further, and now they are just pushing full steam ahead.. on the anti-intellectual agenda..

But one thing is clear, an educated populace is unfit for enslavement. They can't enslave an entire population when dealing with intelligent people who think critically and so the best thing for them to do would be to outright ban or restrict the teaching of things that encourage critical thinking and embrace intelligence. This is why the true history of this country and its people are under attack as we speak.. and it'll only get worse if we do nothing. And because our country continues to be an example for others.. (for better or for worse) we can expect other countries to follow suit.

I will never understand why those with money and power hate those without it as much as they do. I honestly think it is because they are bored and just want to watch the world burn..

Even worse, you have possibly heard that Prager U has been approved as teaching material for Florida schools. It is part of their efforts to get their material taught in classrooms nationwide. Which is an extremely discouraging development and only backing up the concern that these proposed changes to university offerings are politically motivated. Also, I remember hearing that about the Fox legal defense.

A changing world needs arts and social science graduates more than ever – just ask business leaders

From commerce to public policy, cuts to New Zealand’s university humanities departments will have repercussions well beyond the so-called ‘ivory towers’.

theconversation.com

Here is an article which essentially argues the points I have been trying to make. Makes the same distinctions I tried to make between universities as educational and research facilities. People can talk about how with technology there is an increasing dissemination of knowledge but we still need that knowledge to be produced somewhere. He also addresses your points on how empowering the humanities and social sciences can be.

 

[MrDawn]

I think people should have the right to make a good living whether they go to college or not.

In today's society, college is a great way for people to get into debt that they can't pay back from taking out student loans. I feel like It makes going to college a waste of time if you don't have the money to pay it up front. This is pretty spot on:

 

[~ True Legend ~]

I think people should have the right to make a good living whether they go to college or not.

They do in fact but unfortunately schools are only concerned with their standing in the league table which is directly impacted by grades. And to incentivise students to perform at their best, they push university degrees onto them, without consideration given to apprenticeships. Therefore apprenticeships are very much under-rated these days, especially in IT. Many employers will accept a certain number of years of experience as an alternative to a computer science degree when employing a software developer.

In today's society, college is a great way for people to get into debt that they can't pay back from taking out student loans. I feel like It makes going to college a waste of time if you don't have the money to pay it up front. This is pretty spot on:

Not sure about the us, but here in the uk, many won't even end up paying their full loan back, with the difference subsidised by the government. This means the onius is on us as taxpayers to fund university degrees no matter their quality.

 

[Black Angel]

Maybe they should be if taxpayers are paying the tuition. However, if that's not the case, then we could be holding people back. Well, I mean that there is more to a degree then apparent jobs available. For instance, a philosophy undergraduate with a large social media following has more chances than an average one.

People often forget that the students are often tax payers too.. so its not like they are looking for someone to fund their education for free. All of the people I know who went to college was working a job at the same time.. myself included often times because the aid wasn't enough.. which should say something about the amount of money available.

But really, what I have come to learn is that the biggest welfare queens out there are not We The People but the rich and powerful.. their entire schtick is about using other people's money to do the stuff they want, and not their own. Yet these are the first people to gaslight us by complaining about how THEIR money is spent.. so how do WE know that they aren't behind these predatory schools in the same way they are behind the predatory loans? After all who benefits from owning the banks that make these loans? Granted this meme says U.S. economy, but I think it is global.. I don't thing kleptocracy is limited to the U.S. alone..



This is why it is often said that there is no such thing as a good billionaire. We saw this same shit with the mortgages years ago, and it was We The People who had to bail them out and now they are also contributing to the housing crisis by buying up properties and then sitting on them for more profit while driving out the people who live there and need homes..

They often take advantage of laws favorable to the rich and create them where they otherwise don't exist.. and WE end up shouldering the burden.. not just tax paying citizens, but the tax paying non-citizens too who pay much more than we do, and get much less for it too. But it would be the super rich that would tell the citizen that it is the non-citizens and the extremely poor that is taking all their money.. and right-wing organizations like Fox News and Prager U take full advantage of the average persons ignorance about this stuff and weaponize their hate and willful ignorance to help the people screw themselves.. it is astonishing.

Just look at the top recipients of the PPP loans and the Covid relief.. these wealthy people made off like theives and took most of everything before the average person even knew what happened. These are all things that factor into the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer.. but of course as long as the lower classes are pitted against each other then neither will notice the fact that it is the rich fucking them both over until it is too late..

Lather, Rinse and Repeat.

I often wonder what these wealthy people will do if/when society decides that money no longer has value.. I believe that that will be the only conclusion once people become fed up with the wealthy hoarding money.. at the expense of those who legitimately earned it.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

People often forget that the students are often tax payers too.. so its not like they are looking for someone to fund their education for free. All of the people I know who went to college was working a job at the same time.. myself included often times because the aid wasn't enough.. which should say something about the amount of money available.

But really, what I have come to learn is that the biggest welfare queens out there are not We The People but the rich and powerful.. their entire schtick is about using other people's money to do the stuff they want, and not their own. Yet these are the first gaslight people by complaining about how THEIR money is spent.. so how do WE know that they aren't behind these predatory schools in the same way they are behind the predatory loans? After all who benefits from owning the banks that make these loans? Granted this meme says U.S. economy, but I think it is global.. I don't thing kleptocracy is limited to the U.S. alone..



This is why it is often said that there is no such thing as a good billionaire. We saw this same shit with the mortgages years ago, and it was We The People who had to bail them out and now they are also contributing to the housing crisis by buying up properties and then sitting on them for more profit while driving out the people who live there and need homes..

They often take advantage of laws favorable to the rich and create them where they otherwise don't exist.. and WE end up shouldering the burden.. not just tax paying citizens, but the tax paying non-citizens too who pay much more than we do, and get much less for it too. But it would be the super rich that would tell the citizen that it is the non-citizens and the extremely poor that is taking all their money.. and right-wing organizations like Fox News and Prager U take full advantage of the average persons ignorance about this stuff and weaponize their hate and willful ignorance to help the people screw themselves.. it is astonishing.

Just look at the top recipients of the PPP loans and the Covid relief.. these wealthy people made off like theives and took most of everything before the average person even knew what happened. These are all things that factor into the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer.. but of course as long as the lower classes are pitted against each other then neither will notice the fact that it is the rich fucking them both over until it is too late..

Lather, Rinse and Repeat.

I often wonder what these wealthy people will do if/when society decides that money no longer has value.. I believe that that will be the only conclusion once people become fed up with the wealthy hoarding money.. at the expense of those who legitimately earned it.

Well, you gotta get into the right field to earn good money. I'm not saying certain fields are better than others, we all have our strengths. I just mean we need to go for careers with a shortage of skills where there is high demand. Such is life!

 

[Black Angel]

What exactly is the right field? You have people earning mid 6's in California having roommates.. as if they are earning minimum wage.. and those are the lucky ones.. the others either sleep in their car or on the street.. that salary can get you a nice house anywhere else and then a fat savings account too.. real estate is expensive because landlords are greedy. Half of NYCs inventory is empty and it is getting worse.

It is like the wealthy are the only ones that benefit from socialism (seeing as how it is our money that supports their lifestyles) while subjecting the rest of us to capitalism and then have the audacity to gaslight us about how socialism doesn't work.. and how we should be waiting for the benefits to "trickle down" to us.. they are basically pissing on our heads and laughing about it while telling us it is a sun shower.. and people actually believe them..

 

[Black Angel]

Even worse, you have possibly heard that Prager U has been approved as teaching material for Florida schools. It is part of their efforts to get their material taught in classrooms nationwide. Which is an extremely discouraging development and only backing up the concern that these proposed changes to university offerings are politically motivated. Also, I remember hearing that about the Fox legal defense.

A changing world needs arts and social science graduates more than ever – just ask business leaders

From commerce to public policy, cuts to New Zealand’s university humanities departments will have repercussions well beyond the so-called ‘ivory towers’.

theconversation.com

Here is an article which essentially argues the points I have been trying to make. Makes the same distinctions I tried to make between universities as educational and research facilities. People can talk about how with technology there is an increasing dissemination of knowledge but we still need that knowledge to be produced somewhere. He also addresses your points on how empowering the humanities and social sciences can be.

I forgot to address this in my previous posts, but yeah that doesn't surprise me at all.. this started with the Kochs because they have long been behind the scenes trying to do the same at colleges nationwide and it looks like they are gaining momentum.

And yeah, I heard about Florida's approved teaching about slavery.. and how it was good because it allowed Black people to learn skills.. and now they are doing the same shit about the Holocaust and its survivors.. this coming from someone with a history degree is disgusting to the nth degree, but who knows, someone probably paid for his degree in the same way other rich people pay the schools to ensure their kid will graduate..

 

[Scarlet Rose]

I think people should have the right to make a good living whether they go to college or not.

In today's society, college is a great way for people to get into debt that they can't pay back from taking out student loans. I feel like It makes going to college a waste of time if you don't have the money to pay it up front. This is pretty spot on:

Absolutely agreed with this, access to university needs to be much more financially viable. The funding and loan structure over there is incredibly discouraging. The same talking heads which often complain about the educational achievement of students over there are often also diametrically opposed to efforts to make higher education more affordable. In terms of how universities are run we have similar issues here in New Zealand. Their funding model is whack. But thankfully our student loan situation, while it could be improved, is a lot better. First year of uni for instance is tuition free and following years get a 66% subsidy. Student loans are interest free so they aren't punitive.

They do in fact but unfortunately schools are only concerned with their standing in the league table which is directly impacted by grades. And to incentivise students to perform at their best, they push university degrees onto them, without consideration given to apprenticeships. Therefore apprenticeships are very much under-rated these days, especially in IT. Many employers will accept a certain number of years of experience as an alternative to a computer science degree when employing a software developer.


Not sure about the us, but here in the uk, many won't even end up paying their full loan back, with the difference subsidised by the government. This means the onius is on us as taxpayers to fund university degrees no matter their quality.

I agree on the quality front when it comes to accredited and academically recognized fields. Although I would be cautious when this process steers too closely to politically motivated changes. Social sciences and the humanities are more often than not the target and I think that because of their crucial societal role they need more academic independence and freedom from censorship.

Well, you gotta get into the right field to earn good money. I'm not saying certain fields are better than others, we all have our strengths. I just mean we need to go for careers with a shortage of skills where there is high demand. Such is life!

Field in terms of academic field for study, or in terms of occupational field? Also the employment market can be quite turmultous with changes happening quite quickly and I am not sure if I would recommend using that as a basis for choosing a field of study. Also the pay disparity between certain careers can be the result of deliberate choices and actions when those with vested interests are trying to keep their costs down.

I forgot to address this in my previous posts, but yeah that doesn't surprise me at all.. this started with the Kochs because they have long been behind the scenes trying to do the same at colleges nationwide and it looks like they are gaining momentum.

And yeah, I heard about Florida's approved teaching about slavery.. and how it was good because it allowed Black people to learn skills.. and now they are doing the same shit about the Holocaust and its survivors.. this coming from someone with a history degree is disgusting to the nth degree, but who knows, someone probably paid for his degree in the same way other rich people pay the schools to ensure their kid will graduate..

That is all good, it can sometimes take me a really long time to gather my thoughts and organise them enough to reply.

It shouldn't have surprised me, as this is an area of US history that I have some familiarity with since I double majored in politics and social anthropology. Yet somehow how blatant the move was still amazed me. A lot of the wealthy over in the US have had a disastrous impact on political discourse and have been attempting to have that same sway over education. I remember it was quite a thing previously to fund coordinated efforts to get rid of left leaning lecturers. You still see the fruits of that effort with how successfully they have pushed the idea that universities are Marxist institutions and that the power resides within the hands of the lecturers or in the case of public schooling the teachers. The Red Scare, political correctness, cultural marxism it is all just trumpeting up a fake bogeyman to distract from their own politicing. From what I read of your posts, you are more proficient than me in this area. Mine has mostly come from my own recreational reading inspired by what I learned in class. I am also quite a bit more removed given I don't even live in the US. It is also so troubling to me since here in New Zealand we are going in the opposite direction and making more efforts to own up to our troubled history.

 

[Black Angel]

Thank you for the compliment/acknowledgment..

I dont consider myself an expert on this stuff.. I mean I can only speak to what I have seen and experienced personally, and of those I've been privy to from those around me.. much like I do on any other topic..

But yeah, when you have so many forces that are encouraging you to forget and ignore important things, and try like hell to convince you to believe things that are obviously false by repeating slogans over and over in the media (like saying "Facts/Truth don't matter anymore" or "we are living in a post-truth era" etc., as it was so often heard during 2016 with Trump's rise) then it becomes all the more important to pay attention and put laser focus on and keep speaking the truth.

This is why I don't pull any punches regarding the bullshit happening now, especially with the history of the marginalized being banned to coddle the feelings of pathological liars.. who wouldn't know what the truth was if it sat on them.