20 States Fight Socialism

[Cinnamon]

I love good news at the holidays. Thank God for those 20 states and may many more follow!



20 states ask judge to throw out Obama health law

By MELISSA NELSONAP posted: 9:39 PM 12/16/10





PENSACOLA, Fla. -Attorneys for 20 states fighting the new federal health care law told a judge Thursday it will expand the government's powers in dangerous and unintended ways. The states want U.S. District Judge Roger Vinson to issue a summary judgment throwing out the health care law without a full trial. They argue it violates people's rights by forcing them to buy health insurance by 2014 or face penalties.



The act would leave more constitutional damage in its wake than any other statute in our history, David Rivkin, an attorney for the states, told Vinson.



See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/eIavUB

 

[DrLeftover]

They just need to feel the love of Our Beautiful President.



The Dear Leader is just looking out for the children.



The Great and Powerful O has our best interests at heart.



(you buying it yet?)

 

[Temerit]

Can you explain how the health care reform bill is in anyway socialism or logically justify how it is overall a bad piece of legislation?



EDIT: I really am just curious, I don't think the bill is entirely good, but I want to understand where you (both cinnamon and doc) are coming from.

 

[Durandal]

Yeah, I'd like to see a little more than empty rhetoric tossed around. Explain where this Socialism is hiding. I can't wait to leave this hell-hole they call Flori-DUH!



...all I can say, is while it's not perfect, healthcare is workin' pretty good back home where I come from.



...and I agree, the healthcare bill has a lot not to like in it, but for completely different reasons than the OPs citation; beyond that - can someone tell me why Socialism is some dirty word? Some contagion to be avoided?

 

[DrLeftover]

If it is so damned good, then why did Congress (curse - spit) exempt themselves and certain other Federal employees, and now a couple of unions from it?



If the plan is such a great idea, then why does Uncle feel it necessary to use the coercive power of Government to force us to buy in.



Explain those two points to me.

 

[Temerit]

and It's wrong to punish the people that don't want to buy it and/or can't buy it

How is this wrong?



Those who don't want to... well they are going to use the healthcare system someday. You're ok with them just leeching off of the system?



Those who can't afford? They are significantly subsidized and have to pay very very very little.



If you have a problem with this provision why don't you have a problem with mandatory car insurance?

 

[DrLeftover]

The comparison with car insurance is incorrect.



Driving is not comparable to living.



Driving is a privilege you can chose not to take advantage of. It is not a Right.







Now, if the plan is so damned good, why did Congress exempt themselves and other Federal employees?

 

[Durandal]

The comparison with car insurance is incorrect.



Driving is not comparable to living.



Driving is a privilege you can chose not to take advantage of. It is not a Right.







Now, if the plan is so damned good, why did Congress exempt themselves and other Federal employees?

...it is flawed, but not for the same reasons as having to do with 'Socialism'. What's really wrong is that it doesn't really accomplish giving sufficient healthcare to all, a system like Medicare (tweaked, obviously) for all would do better. It basically was a Consumerist/Corporatist power grap where private companies can control provide a needed public service. So, actually, it's more like the opposite of Socialism. A select few (private company CEOs, etc.) will control healthcare and it's accountability for the most part, while the recipient doesn't get much room to make choice. The initial ideas were great, the delivery was poor. I definitely have that sentiment.



Your very assertion that Life is a right, is one I agree with, and hence why there should be some foundation of national health care. This is better in some aspects than what we've had before, but it does need work. Unfortunately Anti-Socialist, Social-Darwinist fear-mongers killed a single-payer type option...



...and single-payer could have worked perfectly fine. Establish a Federal Health Tax, a tax, none of this stupid arcane b.s. that was and is. Those who can't deal with the private market (because they wouldn't be a profit to a private company, or a higher liability they don't want to deal with) will use the system. Those who can deal with the private market (and the private market can expand their offerings on traditionally 'optional' procedures that not too many covered; a new market - really, the insurance co's. should be salivating at such a proposal), can use their money to deal with private insurers and when tax time comes around, those that didn't use the system (easily managed through a database), gets a tax credit to get back what they paid (or at least most of the surplus that would result from people not using the system). To sweeten the deal - if a progressive science research and development approach were actually able to be counted on in this nation - we could allow you to defer any difference that couldn't be repaid on the FHT to go into an interest bearing account (Inflation + Treasury Prime) that the government would pay to people upon retirement age (like Social Security). Since the FHT would hypothetically be over-funded, we wouldn't have to worry about the fund running out of money, so people could rest easy that the guv'mint isn't going to 'steal' any more our money. Those who used the system don't qualify for the tax rebate. Those who didn't do. Considering science would hopefully improve health outcomes and eradicate diseases, etc. the costs would become less and less, until hypothetically only a small static portion of individuals would need the service.



Mandatory insurance is completely comparable to mandatory insurance. Logical fallacy on the denial.



As for Congress, etc. not taking the same medicine so to speak. They are exempt from many a thing the Nebulous Blows like we aren't. Get the picture? Now, before you say 'Government is the problem'. Failure, logical fallacy. Corruption and misadministration is the problem. To stop violent criminals, we don't say 'Humankind is the problem; destroy the world.', we apprehend and stop that criminal. Our political system needs to be poignantly changed to reclaim power of the populace from those 'elected'. ...corruption and misadministration is about the only bi-partisan effort our Congress makes, and they're damn good at it.

 

[Temerit]

The comparison with car insurance is incorrect.



Driving is not comparable to living.



Driving is a privilege you can chose not to take advantage of. It is not a Right.

So you don't drive a car?



Ok, let's say you don't have a car. The friend who gives you a ride has insurance.

If you take a bus, the transit agency has to have insurance.

If you take a train, the rail operator must have insurance.

If you fly, the airline must have insurance.



Are you just going to walk everywhere?



The mandatory health insurance is optional, you can move to another country.

 

[Cinnamon]

If it is so damned good, then why did Congress (curse - spit) exempt themselves and certain other Federal employees, and now a couple of unions from it?



If the plan is such a great idea, then why does Uncle feel it necessary to use the coercive power of Government to force us to buy in.



Explain those two points to me.

I'm sure we know the reason why they proclaim themselves exempt. I'm certain you know.



I posted this subject on another forum and received a reply regarding illegals receiving free health care. It's a fair question and right on topic.



My reply:



''You bring up many good points. Illegals have more rights than American citizens, that's a given. Welfare recipients, the same. That's disgusting.



All of those on welfare (so-called Americans) have a free ride, they don't pay for anything. The people who will be damaged by this horrific form of forced socialism are people who work, their jobs don't offer insurance, their spouses don't have it, etc. We're talking about the working class here, people who live paycheck to paycheck. I've been there before. I'm not speaking on my own behalf today since we have insurance, I'm speaking for the people who cannot take on the equivalent of a monthly car payment (i.e., private medical insurance.) What about them? Should they be forced to quit their jobs and go on the government gravy train welfare program to avoid being penalized for working and not being able to afford $500 extra dollars per month?



I was reading an article which said that they want to mandate insurance to be bought by the young and healthy because they KNOW they will not need it and they will be paying for others. Socialism. Spread the wealth. Once we get into a state of mind that the government can control what you buy, what you eat, what you think, we are no better than any other country on this planet. Freedom is what sets us apart and that freedom is dwindling by the liberals in office. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Temerit]

Everybody runs into difficult patches in life where welfare assistance may be needed; in truth, most Americans today are one lost paycheck away from being without food to eat, a home to live in, or in danger of losing their means of transportation because of the current economy and even natural disasters. When bad things happen to good people, there are government welfare programs are available at every level to help them until times get better. Welfare eligibility is open to every US citizens because it is a right given to all of us.

The government welfare system is there to help, as evidenced in this quote from the Missouri state constitution: all constitutional government is intended to promote the general welfare of the people; that all persons have a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness...all persons are created equal and are entitled to equal rights and opportunity under the law; that to give security to these things is the principal office of government, and that when government does not confer this security, it fails in its chief design. In other words, when the government welfare system does not help you, it fails at its primary purpose, to ensure people are treated equally and given the opportunities to have lives worth living. Government welfare programs exist for the purpose of serving those in need, and utilizing them fully is vital if you are in need of help.



At the first level is local city government welfare assistance. There are programs available that can either help you directly, or refer you to other sorts of welfare assistance. Most city governments have provisions for emergency welfare assistance with utilities, food, and other necessities. Look in the City Government section of the phone book under Emergency Assistance and make sure to call and ask what programs might be available for you. It might surprise you to learn that many programs exist and do not require any form of welfare eligibility requirements like qualifying-income or number of residents in the home dependent.

There are welfare assistance programs in which you only have to ask to receive welfare eligibility. If the programs that your city has are dependent on a certain income level or a certain number of people be living in your home, there is sure to be a referral program, where the city can refer you to local charities and churches that will help with everything from buying medicines to gasoline vouchers to two weeks worth of food.

Make sure to ask for a printed list of these resources, and before you pursue them, make sure you have everything they might ask you for, such as: picture id, proof of residency, social security numbers of all residents of the home, proof of income, and most importantly a list of what it is you need. You would be surprised how many assistance programs ask you right up front, what is it you NEED, and then work very hard to provide it for you, or help you locate it elsewhere. One local charity I am aware of asks it's clients to make a shopping list when they come in, then depending on what it is that you need, a volunteer counselor goes to work on getting you the groceries you need, or the help with your light bill.



Above and beyond local resources are the government welfare programs that the states provide with welfare assistance from food stamps, AFDC, TANF, and other such programs. At the state level, they function much the same, and are almost entirely dependent on your income. Again, gather your documentation before you head down to the local state aid office. You will need to have proof of identity for yourself, and be able to document the presence of all the dependents for whom you want assistance. Most such programs today take the form of a reloadable shopping card onto which payments are loaded each month. You will have to be certain to keep all appointments with the agency from whom you receive assistance, and be certain to comply with any and all directives they give you, as well as make certain you have a safe address at which you can receive correspondence from then.



There are welfare assistance programs to help anyone who needs it, if people just go looking for them, and do everything required to get them. Remember too, that there are many resources available at your local library; the librarians there can direct you to all the resources you could ever need to learn more about government welfare assistance.



---



http://www.welfareinfo.org/assistance/

 

[Durandal]

I'm sure we know the reason why they proclaim themselves exempt. I'm certain you know.

Here's your answer right here:

As for Congress, etc. not taking the same medicine so to speak. They are exempt from many a thing the Nebulous Blows like we aren't. Get the picture? Now, before you say 'Government is the problem'. Failure, logical fallacy. Corruption and misadministration is the problem. To stop violent criminals, we don't say 'Humankind is the problem; destroy the world.', we apprehend and stop that criminal. Our political system needs to be poignantly changed to reclaim power of the populace from those 'elected'. ...corruption and misadministration is about the only bi-partisan effort our Congress makes, and they're damn good at it.

I posted this subject on another forum and received a reply regarding illegals receiving free health care. It's a fair question and right on topic.



My reply:



''You bring up many good points. Illegals have more rights than American citizens, that's a given. Welfare recipients, the same. That's disgusting.



All of those on welfare (so-called Americans) have a free ride, they don't pay for anything. The people who will be damaged by this horrific form of forced socialism are people who work, their jobs don't offer insurance, their spouses don't have it, etc. We're talking about the working class here, people who live paycheck to paycheck. I've been there before. I'm not speaking on my own behalf today since we have insurance, I'm speaking for the people who cannot take on the equivalent of a monthly car payment (i.e., private medical insurance.) What about them? Should they be forced to quit their jobs and go on the government gravy train welfare program to avoid being penalized for working and not being able to afford $500 extra dollars per month?



I was reading an article which said that they want to mandate insurance to be bought by the young and healthy because they KNOW they will not need it and they will be paying for others. Socialism. Spread the wealth. Once we get into a state of mind that the government can control what you buy, what you eat, what you think, we are no better than any other country on this planet. Freedom is what sets us apart and that freedom is dwindling by the liberals in office. Do you see where I'm coming from?

You still haven't explained where this mysterious Socialism is coming from, Cinnamon! Can you please point out and identify the Socialism? I see welfare in the bill, but it isn't Socialist at all, it is entirely the opposite, actually, it's Fascist (forced by a central authority) Corporatist (to the benefit of the non-accountable Health Insurance Corps.) Welfare.



The people who are in the situations that you say will be 'damaged' by the non-existent forced Socialism, will be damaged even more without this new bill. While this bill will not make things perfect, at least people that have jobs that don't offer insurance can get subsidies now to get insurance on their own, and individual plans, which are typically known for denying people for a plethora of 'pre-existing conditions', or denying coverage later based on acquired illnesses that the arcanist actuaries managed to somehow relate to common colds, et al., won't be able to deny anymore on that basis. In other words, these insurance bums actually have to do what they're getting paid for (funny, the unemployed and underemployed (not of their choice) are lambasted for being lazy and such, and are often struggling to survive in recent months - but it's the large, bloated private corporations that are grifting people and then not doing their jobs). The people who have low-wage jobs that don't have enough of an income to buy a plan in the market, will get the support to help them purchase one of those plans. Going from nothing to something and you still have your job. What part of the bill is going to make it so you have to quit the job and go on the 'gravy-train'? ...and have you actually tasted the brown stuff you're calling 'gravy'. Let me let you in on something - it's not actually gravy.



The biggest flaw with this bill actually is the cannibalism those in Washington designed it to do. They chopped a chunk out of Medicare to help prop it up. I don't know what kind of sense that makes. People complain about government not doing things right - maybe if we actually properly funded something we set in place in the first place, the intended effect comes about. It's like filling a car with half a tank of gas and still demanding it somehow go the distance that a full tank of gas affords. If we just got over the tax-phobia that's plagued the nation and funded a national programme properly the first time, there wouldn't be a mess, and like my previous post - the grinchers can get their damned pennies back in the form of a tax return with the surplus funding, if they don't want in. That way those folks that are working paycheck to paycheck for their other things (though in a case like this, if some actual Socialism (BOOGA BOOGA!) was allowed, the only reason they'd be living paycheck to paycheck is because they are spending too much on luxury items with discretionary income), and the other situations you describe got their rear-ends covered, because they don't have to worry about being at the mercy of a health insurance company, or if they didn't have insurance, they don't have to worry about getting stuck with a catastrophic health bill.



You make a logical fallacy in decrying that there is a problem with including the 'young and healthy' in the mix; 'health' is not a static state of being. Unless those young folks don't age by the moment, their youth and health won't remain the same. Age by it's very being, is a degradation of health. Even the young can suffer from injury and/or contract a severe illness (it's all fun and games at the Frat Party until someone gets an eye poke out and Swine Flu). Unless you're invulnerable and/or you're immortal If so, I really don't think you have a stake in this debate.



On the topic of undocumented immigrants. Yeah, if you didn't come through legally, then a law was broken, and you have no rights in the U.S., and I am all for calling them a foreign invader - shoot the people, even, at least under the guise of the current law. However, the law is broken, and this time I don't mean violated, I mean it's flawed. Sure we can deport those who entered our country illegally, we can 'secure' our borders - we can either hire more Border Patrol Agents, or heck, to me, I don't get why we don't have Active Duty U.S. Military on the border. If Mexico went rogue, they aren't going to nuke us (as they are a little short on those types of things), they're are going to blitzkrieg through Texas in a massed combined-arms land assault...not having a force there is a theoretical risk, but I'm digressing here...



...guess what that all means - more money going out. Paying Border Patrol/military, deportations, etc. If you were to document the people (obviously not the violent criminals - if a violent foreign person crosses a border unauthorised - that's terrorism or a stupidly-planned invasion, but an invasion nonetheless), you can tax them, and if you really want to make a cash cow out of it - they can have their wages garnished until a statutory fine is paid off. What I don't get is why we have a policy of restricted immigration in place, when we could just get our anti-China cheap labour right from South of the Border. You get tax revenue from them, and especially now - with the unemployed manufacturing workers here in the U.S., with their experience they can take higher-level positions or start their own companies, hire these new cheap citizens and have them fuel a new manufacturing boom.



Really, if you look at it, there are simple solutions to solve the 'problems' and actually reinforce that holy grail of Capitalism you hold dear...