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Confederate Flag Flies In South Carolina: An Explainer On The Ongoing Debate

Webster

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ABC News: Confederate Flag Flies In South Carolina - An Explainer On The Ongoing Debate
The shooting of nine black parishioners at a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, on Wednesday night has reopened the controversy surrounding the state’s continued display of the confederate flag on capitol grounds.

The Battle Flag of the Northern Virginia Army, made famous by Robert Lee but never formerly adopted as the national flag of the confederacy, was first placed above South Carolina’s State Capitol’s Dome in 1961. It arrived, like many other appropriations of the controversial symbol, in response to the civil rights and desegregation movements.

"This was a symbol of pushback on the part of white south Carolina leaders,” David Goldfield, Professor of history at the University of North Carolina and author of Still Fighting the Civil War, told ABC News.
Goldfield said the thinking behind the decision to fly the flag was “we’re going to put this flag in your face because we’re are against race-mixing.”

Here is an explainer on the ongoing debate:

What is the history?
In 2000, legislators voted to move the flag from the top of the dome to the front lawn. It is currently illegal to remove the flag without additional legislation. “What they did was take the flag down and put it right smack in the middle of state house grounds," Goldfield said, adding that it was “definitely more visible today than it was back then."

Proponents of the continued usage of the confederate flag, such as the Virginia Flaggers and the Sons of Confederate Veterans, often argue that the flag is a symbol of heritage and not hate. They argue that most confederate soldiers did not own slaves and that their use of the flag is not rooted in animosity toward African-Americans, but rather a celebration of their ancestors who fought and died under the flag’s colors. But opponents of its usage argue that interpretation ignores history.

“The bottom line is that from historian’s point of view, the connection between the confederate battle flag and white supremacy is unmistakable,” said David Goldfield. “When in 1863 the confederate congress was debating the issue of a flag, they made it clear that this was representing white supremacy,” he added.

South Carolina, which is one of five states that still doesn't have a state hate crime law, celebrated "Confederate Memorial Day" this past May, during which a large Confederate flag was displayed on the steps of the South Carolina State Capitol.

Why is the flag still flying?
Goldfield argues that the flag should continue to be displayed in a historical setting such as museums, but that its display above the state capitol and elsewhere throughout the country is an affront to the African American population.

“You share the state with 30 to 40 percent of the population are African Americans, for them this flag is the symbol of the confederacy which was formed to preserve and protect the institution of slavery and therefore this banner is not only obnoxious but extremely hurtful and a serves as a reminder of human bondage,” he said.

What happens after Wednesday's shooting?
Following this week's shooting, the flag issue seeped into the debate on the presidential campaign trail, with candidate Lindsey Graham, South Carolina's own senior Senator, suggesting that perhaps it’s time to “revisit that decision."

Gov. Nikki Haley, who was in tears during a news conference Thursday morning, had previously rejected the notion of removing the flag at a debate last year, saying it was a "sensitive issue." Haley's press secretary told ABC News: "In South Carolina, the governor does not have legal authority to alter the flag. Only the General Assembly can do that."

According to a 2011 Pew Research poll, just 9 percent of Americans have a positive reaction to the confederate flag -- and just under a third have a negative reaction.
...remind me again why we should care about a treasonous rag? Besides....
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...the only Confederate flag that mattered was the white flag of surrender when the traitors surrendered in 1865... :mad: :mad:
 
Because the flag does not symbolize racism or slavery. Have always seen the flag here but lately I have seen it far more on vehicles and on front of homes instead of for the American flag as our decline continues.

You know the South would have won the war if they would have said we free all slaves and family if you fight for our independence. Slavery was just a small part of a bigger picture as to why they wanted to separate from the Union.
 
Because the flag does not symbolize racism or slavery. Have always seen the flag here but lately I have seen it far more on vehicles and on front of homes instead of for the American flag as our decline continues.

You know the South would have won the war if they would have said we free all slaves and family if you fight for our independence. Slavery was just a small part of a bigger picture as to why they wanted to separate from the Union.

it was the same reason why america wanted to separate from the uk...
 
also, the swastika is over 3,000 years old, humans say...

so directly involving that symbol or any other symbol as racist or about one thing is incorrect...
 
Under the Constitution they had every right to separate from the union, they just had a morally weak position when keeping slaves.
 
11057359_1464983633814826_2335829267646019621_n.jpg


I'm sorry but I'm about to preach and teach!! If you want to fight a cause, understand what you are fighting. First and foremost the Confederate Flag was never a national flag representing the South, it was a battle flag flown by several armies in Virginia. Even if it had been a national flag for the South, understand that the Civil War wasn't just over slavery, while it was the reason slavery ended, it was merely an excuse for the war. The North fought the war over money (the same reason we fight half the wars these days and excuse it by saying we're fighting for another cause. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion, because, and yes this is a true stereotype, us southerners don't like to be told what to do! Lol. The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels. To touch on another subject, many say that it's a symbol of hate because it was flown over slave ships, and that's false but guess what was? The American flag. Many also say it was the KKKs flag... Google KKK.... You will see them flying the American flag more so than the Confederate Flag.The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! I'm not saying this to down the American Flag because I love it just the same. I'm simply saying that, if the Confederate Flag should be removed, why not the American Flag?? The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money.... And did you know? At the time the War of 1861 -1865 officially commenced, the Southern States were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South. Russia had freed it's servants in 1859, and the South took great note of this. Had military intervention not been forced upon the South, a very different America would have been realized then as well as now.

Racism is being projected onto the Confederate Flag, which is in return, continuing the division among us. Just because one racist lunatic supported the confederate flag, doesn't mean every person who supports it is a racist.

The rebel flag to me means home. Southern pride. Wheat fields, sunflower fields, deer hunting, hard work, trucks, racing, family, and pride in where I'm from. Born and raised here and damn proud of it. Ignorance "flies" both ways. An item can not be racist, unless you are an easily offended person, or racist yourself.


The "rebel flag" we see today is the Army of Tennessee battle flag. NOT the Confederate States of America flag (which Collintouched on). The flag we know today as "Stars and Bars" is not that -- it was a completely different flag, that held a completely different purpose. Now, with that being said - a flags point is to show ownership and representation of land or militia, such as these flags. The North had their own, along with each Army (which was by state then) had their own. The Army of Tennessee (rebel flag) would wave with their calvary as they entered battle.

And can we STOP calling it the "Rebel Flag" because the Rebel Army, and the Confederate Army were two different groups that fought for two different "causes".

Half the South wanted to free slaves, and the other didn't. War was eminent.

The fact is, the flag has been, undoubtedly, used as a "mascot" (if you will) for racial wars. Duh. BUT it's a flag. A mere representation of a group -- a club.

Flags, no matter the content, should not offend anyone. And if that's the case, burn them all because each country that flies a flag, no matter the colors or political background, has done something somewhere in History to hurt, kill, or offend thousands.

This flag was, once a symbol of a strong Army fighting for the rights of its people - but over the years so many ignorant, uneducated people have turned it into a symbol of race. It's sad really.

And whom ever said "this flag is the reason a horrible crime was committed" is a f*cking idiot. First it was video games and rock music -- now a flag?!

Flags don't kill people.



18754623_BG1.jpg


okay so the kkk are flying the american flag too, lets ban it... lets start banning all flags... that'll solve the racism...

wow, humans are getting dumber and dumber...
 
*reads Justice's post* My response to that....quoting:
(Daily Kos)
Graves_of_Unknown_Union_Civil_War_War_Soldiers.JPG

--(DK writer Mark Sumner) I grew up in Kentucky barely 30 miles from the Jefferson Davis Monument. I've strolled the cemeteries full of time-rounded headstones and walked the battlefields where uniform buttons and the pale oxidized lumps of Minie balls still peek from the ground after a hard rain. I've watched reenactors run screaming over hills and heard the gut-punch thump of a period canon fired in memorial at sunset.

But the Confederacy is not my heritage. It's not anyone's heritage. The Confederacy is ourshame. In the whole of the Confederacy, there is not one thing to be proud of. Not the men. Not their actions. Certainly not the ideals.

You'll see people today proclaiming that the Confederacy was launched over an issue of "state's rights," or on some esoteric principle. No. That idea didn't even appear until decades after the hot portion of the Civil War turned into the cooler years that have followed. You'll also see it expressed simply that the war was fought for slavery. But that's not quite right, either.

The Confederacy was launched not on a platform of slavery, but on a foundation of racism. That it maintained slavery as an institution was a feature. That it upheld racism was thedesign. Read the words of Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, speaking at the Athenaeum in Athens, Georgia: The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. ... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.


Head below the fold for just a reminder of what that all means.
--- --- ---
Read that again.

• The Founding Fathers accepted slavery into the Union, but believed it was both evil and on its way out.

• The Confederacy was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal" is "fundamentally wrong."

• The Confederacy has its "cornerstone" entirely on racial inequality.

• The Confederacy was "founded upon exactly the opposite ideas" of the United States.

This isn't the voice of some latter-day apologist who dreamed up noble phrases to paint over events of the time. This is the reality. This is what the men who carried out this treason believed. This is what the men who carried out this treason said. This is what the men who carried out this treason acted to achieve.

There is, in the whole Confederate enterprise, not one admirable notion. Is it part of our history? Yes, it is, to our everlasting shame. It's a part of our history the same way that the apartheid state is a part of South African history. It's a part of our history the same way that the Nazi Reich is a part of German history. It's a part of our history that should embarrass us.

It's the part of our history in which traitors who not only didn't believe in the American union, but also didn't believe in the basic ideals of America, formed a state whose core was nothing less than pure racism.

It should be no more acceptable to wave a Confederate flag in the United States than it is to fly a swastika. No more acceptable to proclaim yourself sympathetic to the Confederate cause than to proclaim yourself a supporter of ISIS. There is no moral difference. None. These are the banners of the enemies of our nation and of our ideals—enemies whose existence is based on inequality and subjugation.

Romanticizing these causes isn't admirable, it's an illness.
....see those gravestones from Arlington in the article, Justice? Those were the real heroes of the Civil War - those brave men who gave their all to preserve, not rip asunder this great Republic - not the traitors of the Confederacy who fought to rip it apart. :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
*reads Justice's post* My response to that....quoting:
....see those gravestones from Arlington in the article, Justice? Those were the real heroes of the Civil War - those brave men who gave their all to preserve, not rip asunder this great Republic - not the traitors of the Confederacy who fought to rip it apart. :mad: :mad: :mad:

The writer is wrong on many things and a idiot on so many levels with this article.
 
The writer is wrong on many things and a idiot on so many levels with this article.
Where, Liberty? Where is he wrong? Please, enlighten us... :rolleyes:
 
Where, Liberty? Where is he wrong? Please, enlighten us... :rolleyes:

wrong for trying to make one side this evil mush mud pit of a place and the north was these awesome, freedom loving, angels that did no harm...

and you're trying to make it seem like that the north didn't provoke the south like how england did with america...

and who's the traitors here?

people that stood up for themselves when the north were trying to screw over the little guy? you really think that's wrong or bad in any way? if you do then you should be shipped to the sheep yard... the southern states left the union and formed their own due to the powerful and the elites... and they did it legally...

with your logic then, south korea is bad and they are a bunch of traitors and all of that nonsense...

all of the arguments have no real bearing because you can't just appoint a flag or a symbol to mean whatever you want it to mean for everyone because to everyone, a symbol can mean something different...

your "response" is nonsense as well...

what's the matter with you and everyone? and all over a flag when a flag doesn't hate, hate is in your heart, not in a symbol...
 
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Where, Liberty? Where is he wrong? Please, enlighten us... :rolleyes:


What Justice said plus the author was wrong about it not being about states rights. This was building up when Andrew Jackson was president. The war very nearly began then if he had not taken action to secure and fortify the bases we had on the souths borders.
 
Some of those videos are excellent Justice. How history forgets freed black men in the South had some of the biggest plantations with slaves they owned.
 

Wow...now there's a rogues' gallery of deluded individuals. :rolleyes:
Someone want to remind that their side - the Confederacy, going by the treasonous rags present - lost in 1865?
 
Wow...now there's a rogues' gallery of deluded individuals. :rolleyes:
Someone want to remind that their side - the Confederacy, going by the treasonous rags present - lost in 1865?

We lost Vietnam and some would say we were invaders, should the American flag be stripped from every possible venue.
 
We lost Vietnam and some would say we were invaders, should the American flag be stripped from every possible venue.
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...nice deflection there, Liberty. :rolleyes:
 
Wow...now there's a rogues' gallery of deluded individuals. :rolleyes:
Someone want to remind that their side - the Confederacy, going by the treasonous rags present - lost in 1865?

great, calling people deluded because you disagree with them and their truth?

then i'll just call you delusional for thinking the south were somehow these evil traitors when they succeeded legally per the united states constitution...

and @Webster, you deflected me by ignoring that same fact and point...

now you can sit there and complain about one flag and then turn around and disrespect my country's flag by modifying it just because you want to and you want to keep that freedom of doing it... you're the type that wants to dish it out to others but can't take it when people get on your case... but with homosexuality aside, people do think as well as the law, it's disrespectful and unlawful...

and there's way more people that are black and proud of the south and that flag than just those few people in those videos...

and you also deflected me when i ask you why do you even care that much about a flag?

and where would it end? and who gets to choose that end? who you? ole' master of equality hypocrite... :P

is that snarky enough? :D :cool:
 
I'm not taking Webster's comments as rude or mean just a little heated up a good debate. But what has happened? I have been agreeing a lot lately with the Justice. ;0
 
now there's people that are going after individuals that 'rock' the battle flag, such as kid rock, or else...

or else what i wonder?

it seems like now people are threatening people...

and it's all political it seems like...

all of this stinks as bull shit and people are eating it up and/or loving it...

but what they don't know is that you're the ones that are hating, you're the ones that are disrespectful and you're the ones that are intolerant of others and their opinions and points of views...
 

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