Confederate flag?

[Fatal Dawn]

The Confederate battle flag, called the Southern Cross or the cross of St. Andrew, has been popularly associated with the shameful reminder of slavery and segregation.



The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.



On the other hand others see the flag as a symbol of Dixie pride and a proud emblem of Southern heritage, with many southern states including M.I and G.A incorporating the design in their state flags.







Personally I don't agree with the flag. While I agree that for some people it might just represent southern pride, but I'm still not moved. Ignorance is not really bliss.



It's like if people walked around with swastika's. If you actually read into the history of the swastika it was used as a symbol of good luck, good will, and prosperity to many Eastern religions far before it was used as an emblem by the Nazi party. Still you can't walk around with a swastika claiming that you intending it to mean something good.



How do you feel about the Confederate flag?

 

[Fatal Dawn]

I'm asking - not judging - but what does it mean?



I see a lot of people use it too, in clothing, car plates, etc. I mean it exists so much in everyday culture but do people know what it stands for or is it like a fashion choice?

 

[Fatal Dawn]

I understand what you're saying, but even if you don't intend it to mean anything offensive it still has that stigma. You are already judged negatively just by wearing it (same as swastikas). You can't show up to a job interview with that on your license plate. Some schools will tell you to leave.



Personally I can't stand the sight of the flag, the people I've met who had them were bigots. Just like in general the people I've met with swastika tattoos and slogans were bigots. It represents an era long passed and there's no place for it in the 21st century. Moreover it represents division. We are not the Northern states and Southern states, we are the United States.

 

[El Churro]

The Confederate battle flag, called the Southern Cross or the cross of St. Andrew, has been popularly associated with the shameful reminder of slavery and segregation.



The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.



On the other hand others see the flag as a symbol of Dixie pride and a proud emblem of Southern heritage, with many southern states including M.I and G.A incorporating the design in their state flags.







Personally I don't agree with the flag. While I agree that for some people it might just represent southern pride, but I'm still not moved. Ignorance is not really bliss.



It's like if people walked around with swastika's. If you actually read into the history of the swastika it was used as a symbol of good luck, good will, and prosperity to many Eastern religions far before it was used as an emblem by the Nazi party. Still you can't walk around with a swastika claiming that you intending it to mean something good.



How do you feel about the Confederate flag?

I don't mind it one bit. In fact I have a few friends who have it it on their truck.

 

[Fatal Dawn]

I won't even try to argue here since it seems I'm alone.

Anyways people are free to exercise free speech however they want to. And other people still have a right to be offended. To be fair flag burning, religious desecration (look up bong hits 4 jesus), and picketing at funerals (Westboro Baptist Church) is covered under free speech. None of things are good to do, though. Everyone's entitled to freedom of expression as long as it doesn't infringe on another person's rights.



Words like 'n-word' and 'faggot' cross the line. Doesn't matter who says them or what they mean by it. That goes from being free speech to hate speech. In my house we're taught to never use slurs like that and that's the way it should be. So people are free to say those words, I don't care. BUT There is no time when words like 'n-word' or 'faggot' should ever come up. It's unnecessary. We're all people.



Also I never made the judgement and said that people who do this or that are racist (after all I did say it means different things to different people). I can't judge anyone. I think there's prejudice in everyone - myself included. Maybe it's all in the context. When you've been a victim of hatred and prejudice you can notice it more than others. If you've ever been black how you will notice how people hug their belongings closer or how when a gay couple is walking down the street people give them stares like they are freaks. If you're white and you walk near a group of blacks they make fun of you.



What you see as merely a flag I see as symbol of hatred. The first time I saw the flag was when I was little. I didn't know what it stood for at the time. But I saw it being waved on the truck of some men who had vandalized my aunt's home.



Sometimes you just wish people could see prejudice for what it is.

 

[DrLeftover]

Fly this one.



It is the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.



However, most people don't know things like that.

the Stars and Bars, first flag of the confederacy 1861.

 

[Evil Eye]

I don't really feel anything when I see it. It's historical to me, like seeing the banner of ancient Rome.

Usage defines what you feel, but you should be pissed about the users, not whatever symbol they choose to flock under.

It's a word. It has as much power as you give it.

Right on the money. Of course images are worth a thousand words, so there's a slight power-up there, but a symbol only has power if you think it does.

Pop culture reference: In Carpe Jugulum a family of vampires tries to get over symbolism and myth. They tell themselves holy water is just water and religious symbols have no power. It actually works... until it all goes horribly wrong (but that'd be spoiling) and they are affected, causing one of them to complain, you taught us to see symbols!. Because it's Discworld, there're thousands of gods and thus thousand of symbols. They are suddenly harmed by just about everything.

(same as swastikas)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Controversies_over_Asian_products Depending on your location, they're totally fine.

 

[El Churro]

I don't really feel anything when I see it. It's historical to me, like seeing the banner of ancient Rome.

Usage defines what you feel, but you should be pissed about the users, not whatever symbol they choose to flock under.

Right on the money. Of course images are worth a thousand words, so there's a slight power-up there, but a symbol only has power if you think it does.

Pop culture reference: In Carpe Jugulum a family of vampires tries to get over symbolism and myth. They tell themselves holy water is just water and religious symbols have no power. It actually works... until it all goes horribly wrong (but that'd be spoiling) and they are affected, causing one of them to complain, you taught us to see symbols!. Because it's Discworld, there're thousands of gods and thus thousand of symbols. They are suddenly harmed by just about everything.

http://en.wikipedia...._Asian_products Depending on your location, they're totally fine.

It's banned in Germany isn't it?

 

[Fatal Dawn]

There's an exception to every rule.





I agree the situation and context are important more than the symbol itself. One of my favorite musical artists Al Jolson used to perform in blackface, not because he was racist but because it was part of his act. Nowadays I think if a movie were to show blackface it would be considered not artistic but insensitive.



Some symbols though have become so powerful in itself. Oftentimes some bad event can tarnish the reputation and integrity of the symbol. Think of the Penn State logo. Some people could be wearing it to represent PSU THON, or the PSU Children Hospitals. But many people today will see it and associate it with the controversy. Can you blame people for feeling so?



It can't be helped. Argue all you want, but today the swastika has become associated with antisemitism and white supremacy as much as a noose represents slavery or as much as a heart represents love and affection and so on.

 

[Evil Eye]

It's banned in Germany isn't it?

Well yes, but Germany is hardly a world-spanning empire

There's an exception to every rule

But which is the exception?

Can you blame people for feeling so?

Not really. Though they have to get over it sooner or later (perhaps a few generations). We'd run out of symbols otherwise.

noose represents slavery

I didn't actually make that association, though it does sound familiar.

 

[DrLeftover]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]There is also slavery going on today, it is known to be rampant in Mauritania, Mali, the Sudan, Niger and so on. As well as in places in South and East Asia.



[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]But, of course, the US Racial Industry (Rev Jackson and his friends) can't talk about it because it is in Africa, usually Black on Black, and Muslim's usually holding Christians,

 

[Temerit]

Yes leftover, we should all just forget what white Christians have done. Forget the conquistadors, the conquering of North America, the enslavement of blacks and abuse for centuries...



And of course it's always the Muslim picking on the poor righteous Christian. (I thought religion as a subject wasn't allowed on here?)



The only people I've ever known to own or have a confederate flag anywhere or on any of their possessions have been total idiots who feel like it actually stands for something positive.



Owning a confederate flag in this day and age is just insensitive and disgusting.

 

[Evil Eye]

We have forgotten the enslavement of Germanic tribes and the like from Roman days haven't we?

(I thought religion as a subject wasn't allowed on here?)

Mentioning and discussing are two different things, but we're watching.

 

[Temerit]

Having slaves is worse. But whites sold them over here as well..

 

[Evil Eye]

Supply and demand. As long as people want slaves someone will sell them. If, however, there is no market for slaves, they won't be sold.

 

[DrLeftover]

Welcome back to putting words in other people's mouths T.



I didn't see where I had said anything you accused me of.



And I challenge you to prove your statement, that every slaveowner was both white as well as Christian.



You may want to begin your research with Free Blacks in the South who did, in fact, own slaves themselves.

 

[Temerit]

Where did I say that every slaveowner was white and Christian? I just don't agree with your tactic of minimizing the dominating role that whites have played in the slave trade and in slave-owning for the past millenium. I also don't agree with your victimization of Christians and demonization of Muslims in your comment.



I know and understand that probably every ethnicity has owned a slave of every other ethnicity at some point. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.



I don't see why I can't hate the flag and people who bear it, especially in this day and age. The flag is something to be ashamed of, something to regret and consider moving forward. The flag represents a group of people who fought extremely hard for the institution of slavery and fought very hard to perpetuate human rights violations.



I don't support the violation of human rights.



And I don't think there really is sound logic for bearing or carrying or waving a confederate flag unless you actually support the idea of a master race and believe that slavery was a healthy institution in the United States.

 

[Evil Eye]

I don't see why I can't hate the flag

I fail to see the point of hating a symbol. What has it ever done to you?

Hating people is all very sensible, but symbols should not obfuscate reality.

Hope the truth will set you free

The truth shall make ye fret. Anyway, that was interesting.

 

[Evil Eye]

Sure, but it's not always wanted.

 

[DrLeftover]

It's often just easier to say I hate that, to paint the opposing side with the largest brush possible, to ban something, or to just ignore what you don't like than to do the research, read the history, and to make up your own mind.



Slavery was bad, terrible, awful, etc. You won't find too many civilized people who will say different. It is occurring today, even in the US, you will find people holding others in servitude.

Is it wrong? Criminal? Inhumane? Yes.





But slavery has always been with us, and will probably always be. And in most cases, it has little to do with race, but a lot to do with Power.



The Confederate Flag has nothing to do with it today, and was not the Flag of Slavery no matter how you cut it. More of an argument could be made to say that it was the flag of Liberty and State's Rights, home rule if you will, even if part of that was indentured servitude and indeed human slavery. But remember, slavery itself was doomed by the industrial revolution and was on its way out before the war started as the cultivation of cotton and tobacco was succumbing to mechanization.



But to dismiss an entire segment of history because of one uncomfortable chapter of it is an example of, well, I'm sorry, but the word fits, willful ignorance and the very picture of closed mindedness in the name of being progressive and idealistic.