Santa Claus Debate!

[Randy]

• Is Santa real or fake?
  
• If he is fake, when is the best time for a child to find out?
  
• Is perpetuating the myth of Santa Claus good for children?
  
• Does Santa being overweight promote and encourage obesity?

Debate all about Santa. The above is just some ideas.

 

[doenut]

In my view, you carry Santa in your heart. If you believe it, then he's real. I try to extend the notion of Santa for kids for as long as possible. You usually can't go much past 10 or 11 because they have friends who tell them otherwise. They grow up too quickly already.



One great site is the Santa Tracker. It's a site which tracks the movements of Santa over Google Earth on Christmas Eve. It basically follows the time zones around the world dropping facts about each country along the way. Good stuff for littlies.

 

[Jazzy]

Is Santa real or fake?

He's very real in the hearts of children.

If he is fake, when is the best time for a child to find out?

There is never a best time for a child to find out.

Is perpetuating the myth of Santa Claus good for children?

Children need hope and joy in their lives and Santa provides both.

Does Santa being overweight promote and encourage obesity?

I have to say, this question made me laugh. Do you think any child notices how much Santa weighs?

 

[Evil Eye]

Does Santa being overweight promote and encourage obesity?

Nah, he can fly and fit through chimneys. He couldn't possibly weigh much

/medievallogic

He's very real in the hearts of children.

 

[Durandal]

I understand the sentiment, and in theory the idea of adding that 'extra magic' to Christmas is a nice though, but I don't think it's a positive thing to perpetuate...and I think in particular, the younger people of today (the Millennial Generation, a.k.a. 'Generation Me') has proven there is a thing as too much magic.



The whole 'cool guy gives gifts to nice children' was certainly real, and with the Mystery Santa folks we read about in the papers and hear about on the news, it's a copycat tradition still going. However the notion that is often told to children isn't.



Being 'fake', or otherwise not true, not authentic, etc. is something that should be taught to children pretty early on. It is a matter of honesty, and I think when parents are more straightforward and honest, they reap such an investment later because their kids will be instilled with a policy of honesty and be less likely to shirk responsibility and reality when it comes around. By knowing the truth about something, one can often better foresee the likely consequences, and thus I think the same works in children. If they can see that what they do has some pretty clear consequences, and aren't clouded by doubt, they will choose actions that are more likely to be positive.



Being someone who was told the Santa Claus myth, retrospectively I wish my parents just told me the truth so I wasn't confused by the 'middle man'. (Though I must admit, and I'll probably come to regret mentioning this, but...I seriously had to be the only kid in the world SCARED of Santa Claus. It wasn't because I was a little Hellion, either. So the naughty or nice thing wasn't much of a threat - it was the thought that while I was sleeping some chubby guy was going to creep in on me and look at me, and knew when I was sleeping, and knew when I was awake. When you think about it...not exactly the most merry thing you can establish for your child. So I learned the facts of the matter at a very young age, because one Christmas morning, my parents found me hiding (in the bathtub, I thought if I hid there, he (Santa) wouldn't expect it and therefore couldn't creep up on me) in sheer terror, because I thought the Claus was coming after me, lol, so consider me biased, I suppose....it probably doesn't help that The Nightmare Before Christmas came out that year

)



Where I think the whole Santa Claus (ADD Moment: I was one typo away from writing Satan Claus lol...) is most damaging is the fact that children end up believing, often, here in the U.S., that some magical dude with unlimited resources is going to magically bring a bunch of things that you want. It takes out considerations (2009 and 2010 are good examples of real life making the Santa Claus thing tough...) like recessions, etc. It takes the hard work and effort from the mothers and fathers out there that are doing the work, and throws it largely away, giving credit to the Papa Noel for all of the work.



I would want my [purely hypothetical] children to value the 'be good for goodness sake' in being good to the family, particularly Ma and Pa, so to speak. I'd want them to know that it was Mum and Dad that spent the time and effort (and money!) to get gifts, and I think it has more meaning and strengthens an inter-familial bond which I think is more incidentally compatible with the purpose of the holiday - celebrating/worshipping the Christian prophet/messiah Jesus Christ and his birth. While I'm not a Christian (though I give props for the fella' for his ideas on how humankind should not be a bunch of jerks to each other...), I understand that is the purpose of Christmas, not a Commercialist Gift-Orgy that the Santa thing can become (while I exchange gifts with others during the time that Christians will honour their lord, it is, to me, more of a nice annual gift-giving day - for the sake of being nice and giving gifts to others).



...and, really beyond the points of this Sociological micro-dissertation I just typed out...there is another critical issue to this Santa Claus thing...for those that perpetuate the North Pole thing as part of the 'magic', what's going to happen with the story when the ice caps melt? Santa's wardrobe might not be too appropriate anymore. Unless he starts rockin' out in tanks and board-shorts.

 

[Temerit]

Holy crap ^^

 

[DrLeftover]

Damn.



I have to agree with Temerit.



Although I may have chosen other words.

 

[Evil Eye]

Durandal, that's a very rational fear... not really something children should worry about I think. Part of the whole innocence thing.

...and, really beyond the points of this Sociological micro-dissertation I just typed out...there is another critical issue to this Santa Claus thing...for those that perpetuate the North Pole thing as part of the 'magic', what's going to happen with the story when the ice caps melt? Santa's wardrobe might not be too appropriate anymore. Unless he starts rockin' out in tanks and board-shorts.

Santa's the long term plan for stopping global warming.

 

[Rapunzel]

Being 'fake', or otherwise not true, not authentic, etc. is something that should be taught to children pretty early on. It is a matter of honesty, and I think when parents are more straightforward and honest, they reap such an investment later because their kids will be instilled with a policy of honesty and be less likely to shirk responsibility and reality when it comes around. By knowing the truth about something, one can often better foresee the likely consequences, and thus I think the same works in children. If they can see that what they do has some pretty clear consequences, and aren't clouded by doubt, they will choose actions that are more likely to be positive.

You made a lot of salient points and on the whole I agree with what you say. There are only 2 points I would argue with you on. The first (above) shows clearly that you are not a parent as life doesn't work like that. Most parents ARE straightforward and honest but teaching your child about the realities of life from a very early age will destroy their wonder, their hopes and their dreams and also their imagination. These are not tangible things in the real world but they make a world of difference between a child who was brought up on the grim realities of life and who lives in despair with nothing to hope or dream for and a well-rounded child who can dream of other things and whose imagination can produce ideas which may well change the world one day.



I would bet a million dollars that when you have children, and you see the wonder and joy in their faces, that you too will perpetuate the myth of Santa.

...and, really beyond the points of this Sociological micro-dissertation I just typed out...there is another critical issue to this Santa Claus thing...for those that perpetuate the North Pole thing as part of the 'magic', what's going to happen with the story when the ice caps melt? Santa's wardrobe might not be too appropriate anymore. Unless he starts rockin' out in tanks and board-shorts.

When the ice caps melt, sea-levels will rise until the only land standing above water level are mountain-tops. Mankind would not be able to survive as all water would be saline so you couldn't have either crops or drinking water. The only 'sentient beings' remaining would be Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny!

 

[DrLeftover]

Saint Nicholas of Myra, who spends the rest of the year as the Patron Saint of Pawnbrokers, or no.



OK.



I really don't care.



But tell me.... what in the Hell do ice skating penguins have to do with Christmas?

 

[Durandal]

You made a lot of salient points and on the whole I agree with what you say. There are only 2 points I would argue with you on. The first (above) shows clearly that you are not a parent as life doesn't work like that. Most parents ARE straightforward and honest but teaching your child about the realities of life from a very early age will destroy their wonder, their hopes and their dreams and also their imagination. These are not tangible things in the real world but they make a world of difference between a child who was brought up on the grim realities of life and who lives in despair with nothing to hope or dream for and a well-rounded child who can dream of other things and whose imagination can produce ideas which may well change the world one day.



I would bet a million dollars that when you have children, and you see the wonder and joy in their faces, that you too will perpetuate the myth of Santa.







When the ice caps melt, sea-levels will rise until the only land standing above water level are mountain-tops. Mankind would not be able to survive as all water would be saline so you couldn't have either crops or drinking water. The only 'sentient beings' remaining would be Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny!

Here's the thing, though. The stark and grim realities, are just that, reality. If reality is dark and grim, it is because it is the net result of the gross factors. What straying from reality and truth is, is basically delusion. No, I'm not a parent (of a human, at least; I've somehow ended up a single father of dogs, and I seem to have to babysit my whole family at times - it sucks being 'smart' (or rather, just not as much of an idiot and/or ignorant as others)), but from the opposite end of things - having been once a child, and growing up and observing my 'peers' (when not too many people want to be your friend, you end up learning more from the observation than the actual experience, sometimes). A child won't necessarily slip into despair, merely because you don't delude them with a fictional person and event. The joy of the holiday has a transference in responsibility from Santa Claus, to the parents, which is more or less the point I was making. You can still establish the same joy, but within the boundaries of reality, with a different name on the giftwrap label.



You can easily establish a child to have hopes and dream, much more so in a positive experience I argue, when you are straightforward with where the magic of the holiday comes from. The child whose parents experience a financial setback will better realise the value of a secure employment and the realities that there isn't necessary any 100% guarantees in life. The child that knows that children in impoverished nations don't get Christmas gifts, because they can't afford to even eat regularly, will perhaps be inspired to give to charities or to take action on their own to effect positive change so such regions can have their gifts. It also breeds awareness. A child that is led to believe that children across the world all get to get gifts from Santa Claus won't know that to many children across the world, Santa Claus doesn't exist, and the holiday of Christmas doesn't even exist to them. They may celebrate something different like Hanukkah, or Eid, or Obon.



As for hyper-salinated water; we already have desalination technology, so I'm pretty sure Humanity could come up with something to adapt. It might not be a pretty situation, but likely a fragment, at least, would survive. Funny enough, in Scandinavia (or at least Norway), the Christmas story there roughly is that Santa and his Elves (called Nisses) live underground and under mountains. There are Red Nisses and Blue Nisses (that I know of at least...), and Santa is a Red Nisse (I believe they are the mountain-dwellers)...and the nicer ones...the Blues tend to be uglier and I guess not so nice. When Christmas comes around, the mountain opens up and Santa goes around giving presents, etc. So if the mountaintops were all we had left, Mountain Nisse Santa would be alright!

 

[MrMetroid]

Well last year on Christmas Eve I did hear a big crashing noise coming from my roof. I swear I'm not joking. Could be something else but I don't know

 

[DrLeftover]

Something else I don't understand.....



Killing a tree for Baby Jesus.

 

[Evil Eye]

Killing a tree for Baby Jesus.

Assimilation of other religions.

 

[Masri]

My parents never did the Santa thing with me, although we did have Santa decorations and whatnot up, and once I even got a few gifts from Santa -- but I knew he wasn't real, we just sort of acted like it for a little while.



Therefore I see nothing wrong with letting your kids know that Santa doesn't exist... it would cause a lot less heartbreak than them having to find out after all these years that he doesn't exist... a lot of my friends actually got mad at their parents when they found out he wasn't real, because they felt lied to.



My best friend's brother is twelve, and he believes in Santa. IMO, he should have been told when he turned nine or ten...



Twelve is just too old.

 

[Raven]

And where did the idea of Santa come from ? *cough* Odin *cough*

 

[DrLeftover]

And where did the idea of Santa come from ? *cough* Odin *cough*

You mean this hodgepodge of: European traditions, Saint Nicholas from the Eastern church, cargo cults, a poem written for a department store, and all the rest all centered on the wrong date for the birth of the Jewish Messiah?

 

[Raven]

Most christian traditions are actually derived from the Norse.



In the Prose Edda, Odin is described as riding Sleipnir through the sky. Children would fill theyre boots with carrots, straw, or sugar, and put them near the chimney for Odin's 8 legged horse - Sleipnir. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or sweets. Sound familiar?



Odin is known as a man of many disguises. He is given many names in Norse poetry, among these are 'long beard' and 'Yule figure'



The poems were written centurys ago, hardly for a department store. The norse belief is full of poems because the skalds wrote them. Thanks to the skalds we actually have written documentation.

 

[DrLeftover]

I know I'm an idiot, and I won't trouble you again.....



but in the mean time, go look up the history of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, which is the department store verse I mentioned.



As well as the poem A visit from St. Nicholas, and perhaps you may wish to revisit the history of the man himself.



And perchance, check out why 25 December was chosen in the first place.



But... I'm an idiot and I won't trouble you again.



Pardon me.

 

[DrLeftover]

Translation methods may change, meaning may be re-interpreted, but something like this says what it says.

MS 3026 FLOOD STORY



MS in Neo Sumerian on clay, Babylonia, 19th-18th c. BC, 1/4 tablet, 6,4x5,5x2,3 cm, ca. 35 lines in cuneiform script.



Context: For 5 of the 6 Sumerian forerunners of the Gilgamesh Epic, see MSS 2652/1-2, 2887, 3026, 3027 and 3361.



Commentary: Mankind's oldest reference to the Deluge, together with 1/3 tablet in Philadelphia, the only other tablet bearing this story in Sumerian. The tablets share several lines from the beginning of the Flood story, but the present tablet also offers new lines and textual variants. Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah, is here described as the priest of Enki, which is new information.



The Sumerian Flood story is one of the 6 forerunners to the Old Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic, the source for the Old Babylonian myth Atra-Hasis, and for the Biblical account of the Flood (Genesis 6:5-9:29), written down several hundred years later.



According to British Museum, their Neo Babylonian tablet with the Flood story as a part of Gilgamesh, is perhaps the most famous tablet in the world. The present tablet is over 1000 years older.

http://www.schoyencollection.com/literatureSumerian.html



OK... I know, we were discussing Santa Clause.



Sorry, I'm an idiot.