Smokers, refusing or significantly limiting state medical..

[Skillet]

Smokers, refusing or significantly limiting state medical care for



Should those who choose to consume tobacco products be denied, or have greatly limited, access to state healthcare provisions?



This is just a thought, but if the illness is related to the tabacco, I think yes. Why should anyone else have to pay for your own stupidity. It's just like illegal drugs. Why should anyone else have to pay for your rehab (In the case of drugs). You dug yourself in that hole, you can get out of it. Maybe an idea is to subsodize the cost of quitting smoking aids.



Opinions?

 

[Princess]

Nope. There's no reason to limit a person's access to health care if they choose to partake in a perfectly legal substance.

 

[Nebulous's iconNebulous]

Well I would think a persons health insurance would help out with their treatments.

 

[Black Angel]

I think that it would be a waste of money.. I mean, why waste money on those who don't care enough about themselves, or their health to not partake in substances that have been known to cause long-term illnesses? Why should taxpayers have to pay for a new liver for someone who can't lay off the booze? The money would be better spent on those who really need it.

 

[Princess]

The only limitation that I know of (personally) is that a smoker is not eligible for a transplant if they are still smoking. They must be tobacco free for a minimum of 6 months (at least in my cousin's case it was 6 months) He didn't make it.

But that is the only limitation.

There is no limitation on drinkers (except transplants) or drug abusers. They all are eligible to receive health care to help stabalize or contain their particular condition. As I said, the only restriction is a transplant--simply because of the limited availability of organs.

 

[DanteX]

That's ridiculous. There are many reasons why people get into smoking cigarettes, and it's not always one's stupidity. Maybe you should give a little thought to that

 

[Skillet]

That's ridiculous. There are many reasons why people get into smoking cigarettes, and it's not always one's stupidity. Maybe you should give a little thought to that

Peer pressure doesn't count. In which case, it would be your own stupidity. I've smoked a couple cigarette and cigars, but I realized how dumb it was. It's no benefit, and it just becomes something to rely on. There are better things to rely on; that don't do near as much damage.

 

[DanteX]

[quote name='DanteX']That's ridiculous. There are many reasons why people get into smoking cigarettes, and it's not always one's stupidity. Maybe you should give a little thought to that

Peer pressure doesn't count. In which case, it would be your own stupidity. I've smoked a couple cigarette and cigars, but I realized how dumb it was. It's no benefit, and it just becomes something to rely on. There are better things to rely on; that don't do near as much damage.[/quote]

How about people who are less fortunate than us? People who grow up in households where everyone is smoking? People who are so fucked in the head from their childhood that the only thing that keeps them somewhat grounded is smoking?



It's not just peer pressure and trying to look cool, there are reasons behind smoking that some can't really help. And denying those people health care would be a complete travesty.

 

[Skillet]

[quote name='Skillet'][quote name='DanteX']That's ridiculous. There are many reasons why people get into smoking cigarettes, and it's not always one's stupidity. Maybe you should give a little thought to that

Peer pressure doesn't count. In which case, it would be your own stupidity. I've smoked a couple cigarette and cigars, but I realized how dumb it was. It's no benefit, and it just becomes something to rely on. There are better things to rely on; that don't do near as much damage.[/quote]

How about people who are less fortunate than us? People who grow up in households where everyone is smoking? People who are so fucked in the head from their childhood that the only thing that keeps them somewhat grounded is smoking?



It's not just peer pressure and trying to look cool, there are reasons behind smoking that some can't really help. And denying those people health care would be a complete travesty.[/quote]



There are always what if's. There will always be circumstances where aid would be given, as in such cases, but they would have to be looked at by an individual basis. I grew up in a house of all smokers. I've had a couple cigarettes and cigars in all my life. Maybe seeing all the people getting ill around them isn't enough motivation? It was for me.



But, like I said, some would be looked at by an individual basis. I'm looking at the bigger picture. In general, where people have the choice, and are in the right state of mind, and not under other abnormal circumstances do you feel the average smoker should still get free health care?

 

[Princess]

But, like I said, some would be looked at by an individual basis. I'm looking at the bigger picture.

Ok you're looking at the bigger picture--so, if I'm a smoker and can afford health care--why can't I get it? The bigger picture also includes a little thing called the Hippocratic Oath. The Oath doesn't say I'll only treat people who aren't being stupid

 

[DanteX]

[quote name='DanteX'][quote name='Skillet']



Peer pressure doesn't count. In which case, it would be your own stupidity. I've smoked a couple cigarette and cigars, but I realized how dumb it was. It's no benefit, and it just becomes something to rely on. There are better things to rely on; that don't do near as much damage.

How about people who are less fortunate than us? People who grow up in households where everyone is smoking? People who are so fucked in the head from their childhood that the only thing that keeps them somewhat grounded is smoking?



It's not just peer pressure and trying to look cool, there are reasons behind smoking that some can't really help. And denying those people health care would be a complete travesty.[/quote]



There are always what if's. There will always be circumstances where aid would be given, as in such cases, but they would have to be looked at by an individual basis. I grew up in a house of all smokers. I've had a couple cigarettes and cigars in all my life. Maybe seeing all the people getting ill around them isn't enough motivation? It was for me.



But, like I said, some would be looked at by an individual basis. I'm looking at the bigger picture. In general, where people have the choice, and are in the right state of mind, and not under other abnormal circumstances do you feel the average smoker should still get free health care?[/quote]

Definitely.



You could say the same about alcohol. Alcohol fucks your liver up, and you'll probably need some extra health care if you are a moderate drinker. Should they be denied health care?



Regardless, none of this would fly in the courts. It's unconstitutional, for sure.

 

[Sariki]

I dont think that a smoker should be denied full healcare. I am sure that we pay more money though because of the risk factors that come with smoking. But I don't beleieve that we should be denied healthcare.

 

[Discord]

Well I would think a persons health insurance would help out with their treatments.

You're forgetting Skillet is from Canada.

 

[Princess]

Bravo. That is how I see it only Princess worded it better than I would have!

And I don't even smoke. I just find it very hypocritical that politicians who have a glass of booze in their hands will tell everyone within earshot about the evils of smoking.

 

[Skillet]

[quote name='Nebulous']Well I would think a persons health insurance would help out with their treatments.

You're forgetting Skillet is from Canada.[/quote]



Yep, so all of us are covered equally. I know that smokes are heavily taxed, but I still feel your own stupidity should be punished to you; not everyone, but you. Cover them in health care, but maybe make smokers pay slightly higher taxes. I don't know, but it would bring a bit more money for health care to bring in the doctors needed here in Canada.

 

[DanteX]

[quote name='Smooth']

Bravo. That is how I see it only Princess worded it better than I would have!

And I don't even smoke. I just find it very hypocritical that politicians who have a glass of booze in their hands will tell everyone within earshot about the evils of smoking.[/quote]

Exactly...

 

[Skillet]

[quote name='Princess'][quote name='Smooth']

Bravo. That is how I see it only Princess worded it better than I would have!

And I don't even smoke. I just find it very hypocritical that politicians who have a glass of booze in their hands will tell everyone within earshot about the evils of smoking.[/quote]

Exactly...[/quote]



I'm not saying alcohol is any better, actually quite the contrary. You always hear of these fights dealing with alcohol, that cause death, and DUI. Most criminals get low jail time, because they were not in the right mind at the time, and DUI should be automatic (harsh) jailtime. This topic is just for smoking though. If you wanna debate on drinking, and the way it is dealt with I'll be more than happy to. You'll probably find I agree. It's ridiculous some things that happen.

 

[DanteX]

[quote name='DanteX'][quote name='Princess']

Bravo. That is how I see it only Princess worded it better than I would have!

And I don't even smoke. I just find it very hypocritical that politicians who have a glass of booze in their hands will tell everyone within earshot about the evils of smoking.

Exactly...[/quote]



I'm not saying alcohol is any better, actually quite the contrary. You always hear of these fights dealing with alcohol, that cause death, and DUI. Most criminals get low jail time, because they were not in the right mind at the time, and DUI should be automatic (harsh) jailtime. This topic is just for smoking though. If you wanna debate on drinking, and the way it is dealt with I'll be more than happy to. You'll probably find I agree. It's ridiculous some things that happen.[/quote]

Oh, yeah, I didn't mean to turn it into an alcohol debate. It's just a point that I agree with, and I think I've exhausted all my other points by now

 

[Skillet]

So let's try to put the alcohol aside. Smoking, as its' own thing, do you still feel that those people that say smoke a pack a day should be given the same health care as those that don't? Oh yeah, to those that said it would be unconstitutional, and that stupidity isn't listed as something that we can discriminate against, as it is not listed..



Here's the first thing in the Canadian charter:



The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.



Which means the charter does have its' limits, and if it finds something does more good than harm, they are allowed to breach on someone else's charter rights.



Here's an example: A few years ago, some Muslims worked at a construction rig, but refused to wear hard hats in an area they were required to. So the boss told them they had to take of their turbens and put on a hard hat for their own safety, or they would be fired. These Muslims were upset, so they took it to the courts, saying their rights to Freedom of Religion and Expression were breached. Was the boss in the wrong? No; because them wearing hard hats in an unsafe area would do more good than harm.





So, there are loopholes for everything in law. Don't think the law is black and white, because it's not. It's very gray.