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Torture
- Thread starter Randy
- Start date
Torture is an Inhuman Gesture, it's also against the Universal Human Rights, however some dictators were practicing them over many prisoners, Zin Abe din Ben Ali Has broken Torture records during his job as a president, many people were tortured by him were People who held his true facts against him to avoid damaging his image., but i'm sure there are people who are still bigger than him in this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture
However there are some people who are torturing others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture
However there are some people who are torturing others.
Don't worry, once Sharia is in place, you'll only have to worry about things like this.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iran-top-court-orders-mans-eyes-be-gouged-out-ears-chopped-pouring-acid-girl-1438653
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iran-top-court-orders-mans-eyes-be-gouged-out-ears-chopped-pouring-acid-girl-1438653
Freddy said:
It's real simple for me. I have no problem at all using any means necessary to extract information that could prevent the deaths of others. I'm sick and tired of bleeding hearts yelling about those that torture and the deaths of innocent people continue. Time for some people to get their heads out of their ass's and take whatever steps needed to prevent more loss of life. And if that means torturing some sons of bitches to get the intel to do that.....so be it.
What is the point in torture if it only leads to us becoming the savages we war against? Why should we allow those with a lower standard of morals degrade our own morals towards their level?
How can we know the person in question truly knows the answer you seek? What exactly makes you think the person doing the torturing doesn't already have a preconceived notion of the truth going in and tortures the person into validating it instead of actually going after truth for what it is and not what we want it to be?
The true purpose of torture as I see it is more about taking the person who represents the group you dislike and personally going out of your way to degrade, hurt and humiliate him solely for your own amusement. The only way torture could truly lead to truth is if you assume the person doing the torture actually knows the truth and just needs it confirmed which would then make you wonder why they would go through the effort to torture if they already know the truth?
If you do not know the truth then how could you know when to stop? If you assume what the truth is then how could you avoid torturing a man to force out a lie because of what you assumed was true but was actually false?
I will never support torture for any reason as I do not believe in degrading my fellow human being. They may not see me the same way as I see them but that gives me no justification for lowering myself simply because his ways are not my own.
How can we know the person in question truly knows the answer you seek? What exactly makes you think the person doing the torturing doesn't already have a preconceived notion of the truth going in and tortures the person into validating it instead of actually going after truth for what it is and not what we want it to be?
The true purpose of torture as I see it is more about taking the person who represents the group you dislike and personally going out of your way to degrade, hurt and humiliate him solely for your own amusement. The only way torture could truly lead to truth is if you assume the person doing the torture actually knows the truth and just needs it confirmed which would then make you wonder why they would go through the effort to torture if they already know the truth?
If you do not know the truth then how could you know when to stop? If you assume what the truth is then how could you avoid torturing a man to force out a lie because of what you assumed was true but was actually false?
I will never support torture for any reason as I do not believe in degrading my fellow human being. They may not see me the same way as I see them but that gives me no justification for lowering myself simply because his ways are not my own.
people trained at getting info by Torture works. Its not even up for debate it works and has saved lives and helped get people like Bin Laden. One side of me wants the bad guys tortured and tortured often. But another side of me has no trust in the government to get anything right and not spread this to the American citizens. So im very conflicted.
Are you up for American citizens being tortured in the name of homeland security? Are you up to being tortured because the government says you know something and just needs to beat it out of you to get it?
When someone asks for this proof, they deny them on the grounds of national security and since everyone is so afraid, no one demands it out of them and simply accepts or even celebrates your torture because of how safe they think they are because of it?
That's the road we take once we start picking and choosing what parts of humanity get treated humanely and what doesn't get that right. Once we can justify anyone being treated inhumanely is when we open it to any and everyone provided the right climate is in place for someone to justify it. You may think today that this road will never be reached but I imagine there was a time when we thought no one in this country would be torturing anyone yet here we are now doing it to "outsiders".
If you are so confident that torture works and it saves lives then why does it leave you so morally conflicted? What moral conflict could you have if you truly believe what you say? I think you aren't as confident in that assertion as you make yourself out to be because if you were then you wouldn't have any.
The truth is there is no way to keep us safe from those willing to do harm. The ones doing harm needs to only succeed once to achieve their goal. The goal of staying safe means succeeding every time which implies perfection which we obviously can't achieve. All we do is deceive ourselves into thinking that we need to throw away morals for safety and that leads to a land that's neither safe nor moral. Do you not think the immorality practiced by the government isn't seeping into our culture and vice versa? Can people not take the injustice done by the government towards foreigners and apply that same logic to people within our country because they want to feel safe or to acquire things from those that they deem worthless because the government illustrated that we can deem someone worthless if we feel they are without need of proof or evidence?
When someone asks for this proof, they deny them on the grounds of national security and since everyone is so afraid, no one demands it out of them and simply accepts or even celebrates your torture because of how safe they think they are because of it?
That's the road we take once we start picking and choosing what parts of humanity get treated humanely and what doesn't get that right. Once we can justify anyone being treated inhumanely is when we open it to any and everyone provided the right climate is in place for someone to justify it. You may think today that this road will never be reached but I imagine there was a time when we thought no one in this country would be torturing anyone yet here we are now doing it to "outsiders".
If you are so confident that torture works and it saves lives then why does it leave you so morally conflicted? What moral conflict could you have if you truly believe what you say? I think you aren't as confident in that assertion as you make yourself out to be because if you were then you wouldn't have any.
The truth is there is no way to keep us safe from those willing to do harm. The ones doing harm needs to only succeed once to achieve their goal. The goal of staying safe means succeeding every time which implies perfection which we obviously can't achieve. All we do is deceive ourselves into thinking that we need to throw away morals for safety and that leads to a land that's neither safe nor moral. Do you not think the immorality practiced by the government isn't seeping into our culture and vice versa? Can people not take the injustice done by the government towards foreigners and apply that same logic to people within our country because they want to feel safe or to acquire things from those that they deem worthless because the government illustrated that we can deem someone worthless if we feel they are without need of proof or evidence?
Bluezone777 said:
Oh im confident it works. And I have no problem with the torture of terrorists. I have no moral conflict within me on if its right or wrong. But at this point I no longer trust anything about our government. And I mean not a single thing. I constantly tell our youth its a huge mistake to join our military in todays America. But Restore the decades of freedoms we have lost so it cant happen to Americans and my conflict to make torture a way of getting info returns.
What do you use to define a person as a terrorist? Most likely the media which of course listens to the government so in essence you define it by what the government declares a terrorist which is in the midst of you saying you don't trust the government while you trust them meanwhile they on the other side do the same thing but their government via their media calls America the terrorists so they can use the same logic you use to justify brutalizing you as you do them.
The government uses terrorism like they used communism as an undefined boogeyman they could bring up whenever they wanted a war instead of how it used to be when you actually had to have a valid need to go to war that was clearly defined but now we can just throw around terrorism and most of the population would blindly follow into such wars. They will do this forever until they are forced to stop which they were in the past because the collapse of the Soviet Union ensured the death of communism so they could no longer trot it out when needed anymore.
There might be benefits to torture but they are far outweighed by the destruction of one's morals in the process of using torture. To destroy the civilized world via making it uncivilized so you can protect it is a foolish endeavor. To say I will do anything to save it even if it means destroying it is exactly the mindset you embrace when you embrace the ways of the uncivilized. There is nothing civilized about torture no matter what is to be supposedly gained from it.
The government uses terrorism like they used communism as an undefined boogeyman they could bring up whenever they wanted a war instead of how it used to be when you actually had to have a valid need to go to war that was clearly defined but now we can just throw around terrorism and most of the population would blindly follow into such wars. They will do this forever until they are forced to stop which they were in the past because the collapse of the Soviet Union ensured the death of communism so they could no longer trot it out when needed anymore.
There might be benefits to torture but they are far outweighed by the destruction of one's morals in the process of using torture. To destroy the civilized world via making it uncivilized so you can protect it is a foolish endeavor. To say I will do anything to save it even if it means destroying it is exactly the mindset you embrace when you embrace the ways of the uncivilized. There is nothing civilized about torture no matter what is to be supposedly gained from it.
My guess is that nobody else here has done the research.
Torture is NOT reliably effective on the person being tortured for the gleaning of good information.
However.
If you have two "persons of interest" and you torture one of them, and we are not talking about 'waterboarding' here but something more akin to what was done in the Spanish Inquisition or at the hands of the Cheka or NKGB, in the same room with the other one very nearly to the point of death, the one who was not tortured is quite likely to talk.
You can start here:
http://alphahistory.com/russianrevolution/cheka/
Torture is NOT reliably effective on the person being tortured for the gleaning of good information.
However.
If you have two "persons of interest" and you torture one of them, and we are not talking about 'waterboarding' here but something more akin to what was done in the Spanish Inquisition or at the hands of the Cheka or NKGB, in the same room with the other one very nearly to the point of death, the one who was not tortured is quite likely to talk.
You can start here:
http://alphahistory.com/russianrevolution/cheka/
And there are intelligence people who would disagree about it being not effective. Since this subject is so taboo were never going to get a accurate idea of a success rate from America using it secretly since WW2 or most countries for that manner. But there was a study done by the CIA in the 1980s about torture being used in South America. They found torture alone was not effective. Long term isolation meaning months and longer followed by torture was very effective. That kind of means to extract information is a art and of course takes a person who has a talent for hurting others. And also is not just in it for the pleasure of hurting someone.
Plus the people who are trained to torture for extracting information and not for the pleasure of it are not going to come out with stats saying out of 1000 test subjects my conclusion is.................. So were working on a fallacy saying it does not work.
From a article.
More Proof Waterboarding Works; Former CIA Agent says it was Necessary Torture
ABC reported yesterday that John Kiriakou, a former CIA agent who interrogated al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, claims that subjecting Zubaydah to 35 seconds of waterboarding produced valuable information that thwarted terrorist attacks … and it was necessary torture:
“A leader of the CIA team that captured the first major al Qaeda figure, Abu Zubaydah, says subjecting him to waterboarding was torture but necessary. In the first public comment by any CIA officer involved in handling high-value al Qaeda targets, John Kiriakou, now retired, said the technique broke Zubaydah in less than 35 seconds.
“The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate,” said Kiriakou in an interview to be broadcast tonight on ABC News’ “World News With Charles Gibson” and “Nightline.”
“From that day on, he answered every question,” Kiriakou said. “The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
Kiriakou said the feeling in the months after the 9/11 attacks was that interrogators did not have the time to delve into the agency’s bag of other interrogation tricks. “Those tricks of the trade require a great deal of time — much of the time — and we didn’t have that luxury. We were afraid that there was another major attack coming,” he said.”
The use of waterboarding and other techniques were directed by CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, and were always a “last resort:”
http://patterico.com/2007/12/11/more-proof-that-waterboarding-works-from-a-former-cia-agent-who-says-it-may-be-torture/
Plus the people who are trained to torture for extracting information and not for the pleasure of it are not going to come out with stats saying out of 1000 test subjects my conclusion is.................. So were working on a fallacy saying it does not work.
From a article.
More Proof Waterboarding Works; Former CIA Agent says it was Necessary Torture
ABC reported yesterday that John Kiriakou, a former CIA agent who interrogated al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, claims that subjecting Zubaydah to 35 seconds of waterboarding produced valuable information that thwarted terrorist attacks … and it was necessary torture:
“A leader of the CIA team that captured the first major al Qaeda figure, Abu Zubaydah, says subjecting him to waterboarding was torture but necessary. In the first public comment by any CIA officer involved in handling high-value al Qaeda targets, John Kiriakou, now retired, said the technique broke Zubaydah in less than 35 seconds.
“The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate,” said Kiriakou in an interview to be broadcast tonight on ABC News’ “World News With Charles Gibson” and “Nightline.”
“From that day on, he answered every question,” Kiriakou said. “The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
Kiriakou said the feeling in the months after the 9/11 attacks was that interrogators did not have the time to delve into the agency’s bag of other interrogation tricks. “Those tricks of the trade require a great deal of time — much of the time — and we didn’t have that luxury. We were afraid that there was another major attack coming,” he said.”
The use of waterboarding and other techniques were directed by CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, and were always a “last resort:”
http://patterico.com/2007/12/11/more-proof-that-waterboarding-works-from-a-former-cia-agent-who-says-it-may-be-torture/
Bluezone777 said:
Sorry dont agree with your entire premise from top to bottom.
@BZ: Let's say a man was caught on surveillance tape kidnapping your family and driving off with them. The authorities finally capture the man but there is no sign of your family anywhere. You don't know where they are or if they are alive or dead. The only one who definitely knows is the man who kidnapped them. Would you be against the authorities using torture methods to get the information?
+Jazzy said:
Hell hand me the tin snips I will do it myself.
I wouldn't simply because you can't guarantee the info given will be valid. He can send you on wild goose chases and revel in your futile efforts to save them so your torture of the man not only does not save your family but destroys your own soul in the process. That's the problem as there is no way to bring validity to any statement made and if you could do so then it's likely the info can be obtained through other means or otherwise you wouldn't be able to validate the information given.
Bluezone777 said:
But you can guarantee the info is correct or not fairly quickly if you have a team.
So maybe some cookies and milk will make him talk. Or some sweet talk about how misunderstood he is.
If the guy is a sicko then torture or not he is going to have pleasure knowing the kidnapped person is going to die. You have a better chance of getting correct info from producing pain then trying nice talk. And I still say its a fallacy saying torture does not work effectively with no real empirical evidence. Hell most people give up when the pain gets to bad from just simply enduring something like navy seal training or much less. You start ripping out toe nails or sticking bamboo shoots into a penis while the person is forced to watch in a mirror I think after one or two false trails 99% are going to fold knowing full well more pain is going to keep coming and keep coming and keep coming as bit by bit he loses body parts as the days drag on.
One thing that has to be remembered is that not everybody from every corner of the world has floor seats to the Democratic National Convention.
And the last I heard, Boco Haram and Hizbullah had declined their invitations.
If you think that just chatting pleasantly with their representatives to learn their future plans is on the agenda, make sure you leave the names and numbers of your next of kin at the front desk.
And the last I heard, Boco Haram and Hizbullah had declined their invitations.
If you think that just chatting pleasantly with their representatives to learn their future plans is on the agenda, make sure you leave the names and numbers of your next of kin at the front desk.
What if he gets off on pain or simply your frustration and emotional destruction? What if the whole point is to watch you suffer because that's the entire goal in the first place? Walking the path of the sicko is no way to illustrate your humanity. If you can justify his behavior by doing some of the same things yourself then you might as well ask to be handcuffed alongside him because you really wouldn't be any different. Your false sense of moral superiority will cause that statement to enrage you most likely so I won't expect much love for me here because of it.
I am not trained in detective work and law enforcement therefore I do believe there is a reason why people are trained for the job. I will say though that becoming the person you are wanting to incarcerate is not the way. I say this because if your goal to remove the criminal is by replacing them with you via your ways then your efforts are futile.
I find it troubling that some here will be so quick to harm their fellow human being having believed they are morally superior. These are the kind of people you lock your doors up and pray to live through the night during a major crisis that invokes martial law.
Your problem is you can never prove someone actually knows the truth. They may fold but will they tell the answer that is actually true or just say a lie because they want the pain to stop or simply know no other way to stop it because they just don't have the answer you seek.
Oddly enough, the countries that openly practice torture tend to treat people the most inhumanely in general. Perhaps that might be more then a coincidence?
I am not trained in detective work and law enforcement therefore I do believe there is a reason why people are trained for the job. I will say though that becoming the person you are wanting to incarcerate is not the way. I say this because if your goal to remove the criminal is by replacing them with you via your ways then your efforts are futile.
I find it troubling that some here will be so quick to harm their fellow human being having believed they are morally superior. These are the kind of people you lock your doors up and pray to live through the night during a major crisis that invokes martial law.
Your problem is you can never prove someone actually knows the truth. They may fold but will they tell the answer that is actually true or just say a lie because they want the pain to stop or simply know no other way to stop it because they just don't have the answer you seek.
Oddly enough, the countries that openly practice torture tend to treat people the most inhumanely in general. Perhaps that might be more then a coincidence?
