transgenderism

[TommyTooter]

some men are born with vaginas and some women are born with penises. is this something that is natural and should be accepted and respected or an abomination that needs to be eliminated from the planet? please give your reasoning in the comment box.

 

[Dee]

I'm not going to claim to know what it's like as I consider myself a female having been born in a body I'm comfortable with, but there have been studies that suggest while people are born with a certain genitalia and assigned a sex at birth due to social and gender norms, that there is simply more there that meets the eye. There are theories about genetics and brain structure playing a role, and I absolutely believe there is much more that we can learn about ourselves as a human species. We've barely tapped into uncovering explanations even for things we know happen but simply don't know why, so what's different about this?

To say that something isn't real because someone is born with genitalia considered "male/female" by the majority of society is ignorant. Take for example individuals who are intersex. How would they be "categorized"? In my opinion, that a person born with a specific set of genitalia or chromosomal genotype other than XX-female and XY-male nullifies the typical argument that certain genitalia makes it black and white. And in that case the argument that transgenderism is "sick" or "unnatural" is a misguided opinion on the topic.

Who you are is not determined by what's between your legs, which is why I voted for it being a natural thing. Perhaps it doesn't seem natural because we as a society are ignorant to it, and therefore unable to truly understand something or someone different from us can exist and be just as normal.

 

[Nebulous's iconNebulous]

Interesting how this poll is set up to make anyone who chooses the unnatural option look like a closed-minded bigot.

I have to agree with that.

 

[Jazzy]

Interesting how this poll is set up to make anyone who chooses the unnatural option look like a closed-minded bigot.
Obviously the author of the thread has had his lifestyle choice attacked in some way and he's looking to "weed out" members who don't think as he does.

I totally agree with you.

 

[Bluezone777]

If your goal was to become respected by others then this is not the way to do it. If you really wanted a honest and open discussion then fine but if all you are looking for is an excuse to hurl abuse at others then I pass.

If we are to define natural by what the majority are like then I say no it's not natural as it's a defect like many others that people live with. Just because you can be born with it or without it doesn't make it natural. It doesn't mean it gives anyone the right to abuse or mistreat those afflicted with said defects but it doesn't mean we need to treat them like they are normal because it does no one any favors to help someone deceive themselves by validating an opinion they want to validate through others.

 

[DrLeftover]

So I'm a closed minded bigot.

I wonder what that makes the original pollster?

 

[TommyTooter]

i am the victim of bad medicine that made me be born intersexed with GID. this is not a lifestyle choice. i was born this way. i'm also not homosexual, into kinky sex or any of the other things people are conditioned to think of when they think about transgenderism.

i am also an established artist with a fairly large reader base. i post news and entertainment media from the indie music and arts community to these smaller boards. i've found the dominant posters in this forum to be self-consumed, arrogant, intellectually dishonest bigots.

if you don't like my attitude, there are two options: ignore me or ban me.

the scientific fact of the matter is that gender identity is not hard wired to the genitals. there are structural differences that have been found in the brains of transgender people and the hormone balances are different.

 

[TommyTooter]

If your goal was to become respected by others then this is not the way to do it. If you really wanted a honest and open discussion then fine but if all you are looking for is an excuse to hurl abuse at others then I pass.

If we are to define natural by what the majority are like then I say no it's not natural as it's a defect like many others that people live with. Just because you can be born with it or without it doesn't make it natural. It doesn't mean it gives anyone the right to abuse or mistreat those afflicted with said defects but it doesn't mean we need to treat them like they are normal because it does no one any favors to help someone deceive themselves by validating an opinion they want to validate through others.

i am what i am and don't worry about respect from anonymous keyboard commandos. love me or hate me as you will, but for a board admin to declare in no uncertain terms that women do not have penises and then ignore my polite correction, has compelled me to do this. i don't care about how any of you feel about me as a person, but if you are going to be perceiving me as a male, it's not worth my time to participate at all.

 

[Khalessi]

I'm not going to claim to know what it's like as I consider myself a female having been born in a body I'm comfortable with, but there have been studies that suggest while people are born with a certain genitalia and assigned a sex at birth due to social and gender norms, that there is simply more there that meets the eye. There are theories about genetics and brain structure playing a role, and I absolutely believe there is much more that we can learn about ourselves as a human species. We've barely tapped into uncovering explanations even for things we know happen but simply don't know why, so what's different about this?

To say that something isn't real because someone is born with genitalia considered "male/female" by the majority of society is ignorant. Take for example individuals who are intersex. How would they be "categorized"? In my opinion, that a person born with a specific set of genitalia or chromosomal genotype other than XX-female and XY-male nullifies the typical argument that certain genitalia makes it black and white. And in that case the argument that transgenderism is "sick" or "unnatural" is a misguided opinion on the topic.

Who you are is not determined by what's between your legs, which is why I voted for it being a natural thing. Perhaps it doesn't seem natural because we as a society are ignorant to it, and therefore unable to truly understand something or someone different from us can exist and be just as normal.

The most intelligent, and common sense post/reply in this entire thread.

Well expressed Dee.

 

[Jazzy]

Females DO NOT have penises, and males DO NOT have vaginas.

We all know how babies are born, as a result of female egg and male sperm. Humans are either male or female.

There are more people born missing a body part than are born intersex. And now that we have chromosomal testing even intersex people can be sexed. Most individuals with disorders of sexual development are male= they have a Y chromosome. Chromosomally female intersex have an XO configuration, and are sterile as a result of their chromosomal birth defect. So even the tiny minority of people born with a birth defect of sex can be “sexed”.

What about women who have mastectomies and men who lose a penis in a duck hunting accident- they are still female/male, right?

 

[Fatal Dawn]

Females DO NOT have penises, and males DO NOT have vaginas.

We all know how babies are born, as a result of female egg and male sperm. Humans are either male or female.

There are more people born missing a body part than are born intersex. And now that we have chromosomal testing even intersex people can be sexed. Most individuals with disorders of sexual development are male= they have a Y chromosome. Chromosomally female intersex have an XO configuration, and are sterile as a result of their chromosomal birth defect. So even the tiny minority of people born with a birth defect of sex can be “sexed”.

What about women who have mastectomies and men who lose a penis in a duck hunting accident- they are still female/male, right?

I was a little confused based on the OP, but aren't we talking about transgenderism in general, not just transexualism? If so, it isn't just biology that comes into place. If that were the case, it would be easy for people with Klinefelter's, for example, to just identify as male. Even after sex therapy, most people with Klinefelter's still struggle with their gender identity. A person's gender identity isn't always fixed to what they were born with. Based on what you just said, doesn't the whole idea of having to 'assign' a sex allude to that?

I'm not going to claim to know what it's like as I consider myself a female having been born in a body I'm comfortable with, but there have been studies that suggest while people are born with a certain genitalia and assigned a sex at birth due to social and gender norms, that there is simply more there that meets the eye. There are theories about genetics and brain structure playing a role, and I absolutely believe there is much more that we can learn about ourselves as a human species. We've barely tapped into uncovering explanations even for things we know happen but simply don't know why, so what's different about this?

To say that something isn't real because someone is born with genitalia considered "male/female" by the majority of society is ignorant. Take for example individuals who are intersex. How would they be "categorized"? In my opinion, that a person born with a specific set of genitalia or chromosomal genotype other than XX-female and XY-male nullifies the typical argument that certain genitalia makes it black and white. And in that case the argument that transgenderism is "sick" or "unnatural" is a misguided opinion on the topic.

Who you are is not determined by what's between your legs, which is why I voted for it being a natural thing. Perhaps it doesn't seem natural because we as a society are ignorant to it, and therefore unable to truly understand something or someone different from us can exist and be just as normal.

The most intelligent, and common sense post/reply in this entire thread.

Well expressed Dee.

I agree. That was brilliantly written, Dee.

 

[Khalessi]

Females DO NOT have penises, and males DO NOT have vaginas.

We all know how babies are born, as a result of female egg and male sperm. Humans are either male or female.

There are more people born missing a body part than are born intersex. And now that we have chromosomal testing even intersex people can be sexed. Most individuals with disorders of sexual development are male= they have a Y chromosome. Chromosomally female intersex have an XO configuration, and are sterile as a result of their chromosomal birth defect. So even the tiny minority of people born with a birth defect of sex can be “sexed”.

What about women who have mastectomies and men who lose a penis in a duck hunting accident- they are still female/male, right?

I was a little confused based on the OP, but aren't we talking about transgenderism in general, not just transexualism? If so, it isn't just biology that comes into place. If that were the case, it would be easy for people with Klinefelter's, for example, to just identify as male. Even after sex therapy, most people with Klinefelter's still struggle with their gender identity. A person's gender identity isn't always fixed to what they were born with. Based on what you just said, doesn't the whole idea of having to 'assign' a sex allude to that?

I'm not going to claim to know what it's like as I consider myself a female having been born in a body I'm comfortable with, but there have been studies that suggest while people are born with a certain genitalia and assigned a sex at birth due to social and gender norms, that there is simply more there that meets the eye. There are theories about genetics and brain structure playing a role, and I absolutely believe there is much more that we can learn about ourselves as a human species. We've barely tapped into uncovering explanations even for things we know happen but simply don't know why, so what's different about this?

To say that something isn't real because someone is born with genitalia considered "male/female" by the majority of society is ignorant. Take for example individuals who are intersex. How would they be "categorized"? In my opinion, that a person born with a specific set of genitalia or chromosomal genotype other than XX-female and XY-male nullifies the typical argument that certain genitalia makes it black and white. And in that case the argument that transgenderism is "sick" or "unnatural" is a misguided opinion on the topic.

Who you are is not determined by what's between your legs, which is why I voted for it being a natural thing. Perhaps it doesn't seem natural because we as a society are ignorant to it, and therefore unable to truly understand something or someone different from us can exist and be just as normal.

The most intelligent, and common sense post/reply in this entire thread.

Well expressed Dee.

I agree. That was brilliantly written, Dee.

I have to say .. Dee's post was one of the best and most informative I have eva really read on any forum, regardless of subject matter .. and I've been on forums for quite a few years now.

 

[Dee]

I understand how deep-seated those opinions are that sound like: "If you have a penis are a MAN and if you have a vagina you are a WOMAN". This is simply a man-made way of looking at the situation, and it has been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Only now are we really beginning to explore what has existed for a very long time, and that scares those who don't understand it and don't accept it. They respond with anger and in an offensive manner, and that is what creates this atmosphere of misunderstanding.

There is quite obviously some merit to the issue or this wouldn't be a prevalent situation today. More people are coming out and being who they are because there are so many other transgendered people who are going through the same thing, who are telling us cisgendered people: "Look! We're here. We exist too just like you, but we're just a little different." They weren't born into the body society ("health care professional") assigned them.

You can see it all around you if you just pay attention to how black and white most people think the issue is. Boys and girls are treated differently. Boys are blue and girls are pink. Boys wear pants and play with trucks. Girls wear dresses and play with Barbies. Boys love to rough-house and play sports. Girls love to wear makeup and are nurturing. We assign fetuses sex, gender, and sexual orientation even before they're out of the womb with certain comments, the things we buy for them that are typically considered more masculine or feminine, etc! That kind of narrow-minded attitude is exactly like saying "you're either a man or you're a woman" simply because of your genital organs tell me there are only two options available.

But what I am saying is that it is NOT as clear-cut as a lot of people still believe. There has been scientific studies testing theories that brain structure and genetics play a huge role in transgenderism. Although there is still a lot to be studied, even about cisgender people, which we still don't understand, how are we going to say for certain something is as plain and simple because that's just how it is and always has been?

At one point, we brilliant human beings thought the world was flat. At another point, we thought the sun orbited the Earth, and that sacrificing a young woman to the gods would sooth their wrath and bring rain and crop. Hell, even some people don't believe that evolution or the existence of dinosaurs is true and provable. And for that matter, scientific fact, which can be tested over and over again and yield the same results.

I fear for the society that claims something is wrong simply out of ignorance.

 

[Nebulous's iconNebulous]

Well my personal stance on the matter is... I don't really have one. I am neutral (indifferent) on the whole issue. People can live their life the way they want to live it and I don't really care what that entails as long as it doesn't effect me directly. Its not my place to tell another person what they are and how to live their life.

 

[Khalessi]

Very insightful stuff Dee.

Thanks for the incredible post.

 

[TommyTooter]

I'm not going to claim to know what it's like as I consider myself a female having been born in a body I'm comfortable with, but there have been studies that suggest while people are born with a certain genitalia and assigned a sex at birth due to social and gender norms, that there is simply more there that meets the eye. There are theories about genetics and brain structure playing a role, and I absolutely believe there is much more that we can learn about ourselves as a human species. We've barely tapped into uncovering explanations even for things we know happen but simply don't know why, so what's different about this?

To say that something isn't real because someone is born with genitalia considered "male/female" by the majority of society is ignorant. Take for example individuals who are intersex. How would they be "categorized"? In my opinion, that a person born with a specific set of genitalia or chromosomal genotype other than XX-female and XY-male nullifies the typical argument that certain genitalia makes it black and white. And in that case the argument that transgenderism is "sick" or "unnatural" is a misguided opinion on the topic.

Who you are is not determined by what's between your legs, which is why I voted for it being a natural thing. Perhaps it doesn't seem natural because we as a society are ignorant to it, and therefore unable to truly understand something or someone different from us can exist and be just as normal.

i almost missed this because of the hate and ignorance being spewed by the people who aggravated me enough to post the thread. i'm the result of bad medicine - DES given to my mother when she was pregnant - and bad parenting - parents who forced me to be something that i was emotionally unsuited for.

gender identity and reproductive organs are simply not necessarily hard wired. i'm physically intersexed and mentally female. my body moves like a female and i had to train myself not to sashay when i walked because i was getting bullied for it.

i'm finding the dominant posters here to be extremely unpleasant, intellectually dishonest people and i posted this specifically to separate the wheat from the chaff to see whether i even wanted to continue to try to develop this forum as an outlet for the media i distribute. thank you for your honest, well-reasoned response.

 

[TommyTooter]

There is very little to nothing about you and your comments that is "polite". Your aggressive mannerism in this thread speaks volumes about your intent.

You gripe about being perceived as a male when your chosen screen name is a man's name. Believe it or not, none of the members here are mind-readers and you can boast about whatever it is you do offline all you like. None of that changes the fact that your intent in writing this thread is to cause problems.

No one, admin or member is required to reply to anything here. Sometimes ignoring shitty comments is the best way to handle things. Regardless of the action taken, you are not in a position to demand a reply to anything.

you're just a nasty hypocrite. i thought you were ignoring me?

 

[TommyTooter]

Well my personal stance on the matter is... I don't really have one. I am neutral (indifferent) on the whole issue. People can live their life the way they want to live it and I don't really care what that entails as long as it doesn't effect me directly. Its not my place to tell another person what they are and how to live their life.

for me, it's a choice of forcing myself to conform to the gender binary and be extremely unhappy or act naturally and take the heat from ignorant bigots. i've chosen the latter.

regarding this forum, there are three individuals who have been very aggressive toward me. i will respond in kind from here on out, so you may want to consider just banning me.

 

[Dee]

I don't think anyone needs to be banned. There are just some people whose brains simply cannot fathom something so hardwired into them that it's impossible to convince them otherwise. That doesn't make them a bad person. It simply makes them ignorant. Not ignorant as in "stupid", but just uninformed about the facts and therefore have difficulties wrapping their brains around the idea that something they don't understand or agree with could possibly exist as fact like the air we breathe or the gravity that keeps us on the ground.

Then again, it's a two-way road. What are we trying to get out of this thread and what are you going to do with the responses? Everyone could easily let their subjective opinions and the hostility lead the way for this thread to crash and burn, or we could have a genuine discussion where we...you know, actually learn something about each other instead of just putting up our walls and thinking in such concrete fact.

Life is much too short to be so close-minded, for both sides of the parties taking place in this discussion. I think it'd be much better to try and at least find some understanding as opposed to keeping up our metaphorical fists, ready to fight the moment we feel we're offended. Who knows, you may actually find a friend in someone who simply did not understand. Because really, in the end, we're all just headed for one place anyway.

Do yourselves a favor and think about what's REALLY important.

 

[TommyTooter]

thank you for your focus, dee. as i said, i had one foot out the door and deliberately tried to get banned by calling out the close minded, self-consumed, over-inflated egos of the dominant posters in this community who were being so obnoxious toward me.

since there is somebody with some reasoning power and dignified delivery, i'll gladly switch gears and expand on the issues.

transgenderism is something that is clearly genetic. it is not a choice. some men are born with female psyches and some women with male ones. in my case, i'm physically intersexed as well and it was difficult for me to pass as cis male until i could grow a beard, which came very late. as you may imagine, the gym locker room was pure hell for me. a group of jocks once attempted to get me drunk and gang rape me, but i realized what was going on and fled before i passed out.

as a class, transgender people are among the people most likely to attempt suicide and be murdered. in fact, the most dangerous thing to be in america is a black transgender sex worker. there have been several brutal murders in the past few months, including one who was burned alive.

most transgender people just want to mainstream into the community in the gender role of their hearts, but we are invisible to the general public who only see us portrayed as kinky perverts with bizarre body modifications in pornography and drag shows. though i'm able to walk around in female mode without any second looks, i've found that if i do it when i'm busking, it severely impacts my income, drawing a lot of ridicule i don't get when i'm just walking around.

gender identity disorder was recently renamed gender dysphoria to remove it from the chapter on psycho-sexual disorders to one of it's own, characterizing it as a congenital anomaly that manifests psychiatric symptoms in the DSM-V that just came out. for myself, the hormone imbalance causes a dysfunction in adrenalin metabolism making me prone to panic attacks, tourette's like outbursts of rage and full blown hyper-manic episodes if the stress is extreme and persists over the course of weeks.

access to therapy is very difficult for adults, requiring long perioods of psychotherapy before you can even get prescribed any hormones. the road to gender reassignment surgery is still a very long one from there and trans women report taking as much as 20 years to completely transition.

fortunately, the hippocratic oath reared its ugly head to pediatricians. if doing nothing is potentially more harmful than the proposed treatment, they have to do something and so they are now advising parents of trans kids to allow them to express themselves naturally. there is nothing irreversible that they do until the children are in their teens and a fair number of them grow out of it and go on as cis gender people. for the ones who don't, the therapy meant the difference between a happy childhood and one frought with suicidal ideations.