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Vegetarians vs Meat Eaters
- Thread starter Nebulous
- Start date
Insensitive but funny at the same time.I eat meat because I can, and I love it.
Nobody is right. As humans, we can choose to be herbivorus or omnivorus, whatever works for us. I am a meat eater but I fully respect vegetarians and vegans, I don't see anything wrong with either decision. In fact, humans don't NEED meat like other animals do, we can get by eating plants from the time we're born until we die and still live a perfectly healthy life.
I have been vegetarian for over 14 years.
I see it this way.....I dont care what cave men used to eat, nor do I care for the our bodies are made to eat meat argument (of which there are 2 sides). Nor do I care how the animals were reared, as it's the actual killing that I object to most of all.
Nowadays, we as humans have the ability and intelligence to choose what we want to eat. I choose not to eat meat.
I have no issue with meat eaters, other than when meat eaters try to make me change my opinion....that's never gonna happen.
I always say, I dont preach my view, and so dont preach yours to me.
Each to their own.
I see it this way.....I dont care what cave men used to eat, nor do I care for the our bodies are made to eat meat argument (of which there are 2 sides). Nor do I care how the animals were reared, as it's the actual killing that I object to most of all.
Nowadays, we as humans have the ability and intelligence to choose what we want to eat. I choose not to eat meat.
I have no issue with meat eaters, other than when meat eaters try to make me change my opinion....that's never gonna happen.
I always say, I dont preach my view, and so dont preach yours to me.
Each to their own.
What do vegans eat? Don’t vegans just eat vegetables?
No, vegans eat a variety of different foods which usually fall into the main categories: Pulses, Grains, Nuts, Seeds, Pasta, Fruit, and Vegetables. Then there is mock meats, vegan cheese, soya milk, rice milk, and so on.
Where do vegans get their essential nutrients from?
Rough list:
• Protein: Wholegrains (e.g. wholewheat flour, bread and pasta, brown rice, oats, rye), nuts (e.g. hazels, cashews, brazils, almonds), seeds (sunflower, sesame, pumpkin), pulses (peas, beans, lentils), soya products (flour, soya milk, tofu, tempeh)
• Carbohydrates: Wholegrains, pulses, potatoes, fresh fruit, dried fruit
• Fats: Nuts and seeds (and their oils), vegan margarine, avocados
• Vitamin A - Carrots, spinach, pumpkins, tomatoes, dark greens, vegan margarines.
• Vitamin B - Nuts, wholegrains, oats, muesli, pulses (peas, beans, lentils), yeast extracts, green leafy vegetables, potatoes, mushrooms and dried fruit
• Vitamin B12 - Fortified yeast extracts (e.g. Marmite), soya milks (e.g. Plamil), TVP products, packeted veggie burger mixes, some cereals (e.g. Kellogg's Fruit & Fibre, Frosties or Common Sense Oat Bran Flakes). Seaweed and fermented products may contain some B12 but are not reliable sources.
• Vitamin C - Citrus fruits (e.g. oranges, lemons, grapefruit), red and blackcurrants, berries, green vegetables, potatoes
• Vitamin D - Action of sunlight on the skin, vegan margarines, some soya milks (e.g. Plamil)
• Vitamin E - Nuts, seeds, wholegrains, vegetable oils
• Calcium - Nuts, seeds, pulses, molasses, parsley, figs, sea vegetables, grains, fortified soya milks, hard tap water
• Iron - Nuts, seeds, pulses, grains, dried fruit, sea vegetables, parsley, green leafy vegetable
But it’s natural for humans to eat meat!
If it truly were natural for humans to eat meat we’d all be doing the behaviour without a second thought. Also, something that is natural does not automatically equate to it being right. Not to mention that humans need to process their meat in order for it to be easier to digest and also taste good to the palate. Naturally omnivorous animals do not process their meat in order to eat it. They eat it straight from the carcass as nature intended. Also, much of the meat that humans eat comes from animals far from their ancestors. Meat animals are selectively bred, genetically engineered and mutated so much that many of their characteristics and behaviours do not resemble that of their ancestors. Also, much of the meat humans eat comes from animals that are fed antibiotics – far from natural.
Don’t humans need meat to survive?
No, if that were so veganism (and branches of it) would be impossible, just as vegetarianism would be. One can even remain adequately healthy on a fruitarian diet (a diet that consists of fruit, nuts and seeds that have fallen naturally from a tree or plant). All the nutrients humans need in order to survive healthily can be obtained from non-animal sources. It should also be noted, a human living solely on a meat diet is likely to become seriously ill (and possibly die) whereas a human solely on a fruit and vegetable diet is more likely to thrive.
Humans cook their meat to get rid of bacteria!
No, humans cook their meat to make it taste nicer. Even before humans even contemplated the theory of small molecular organisms that caused illness and disease, humans processed their meat via cooking and seasoning and such.
But animals eat other animals so why shouldn’t we?!
Animals in the wild eat other animals to survive. We (well, we being the majority of the world) do not. Most humans consume and use animal products purely because of convenience and the moment’s satisfaction in the mouth (eating). Also, if one were to say that animals eat other animals in the wild so it’s ok for us to, then one can easily say that some animals DON’T eat other animals in the wild so it’s ok for us to do such too. Likewise, animals in the wild steal from other animals (i.e. some birds steal the eggs of others and raise them as their own), fight for dominance within hierarchies, kill the young of rival males, and so on. So if humans are willing to use animal behaviour as an excuse for something humans do, one could apply it to other things in life that humans do.
Why should we care about animals?
Most people believe that unnecessary suffering is bad. Other animals -- particularly vertebrates -- suffer physical pain and even emotional stress in much the same way humans do. Because of this, we should take animals' suffering seriously. Because animal products are not a necessary part of our diet, becoming vegan is one of the most effective ways to reduce animals' suffering. Another thing to think about is, how would you feel if you were in the position of the animals?
Won't the animals just die anyway? And if we don't eat the animals, won't they overrun the world?
We don't just happen to kill and eat animals to save them from dying a natural death. We breed more than 9 billion farm animals just in the U.S. each year because of the consumer demand for animal products. If we stop buying animal products, animal industries will have no incentive to keep breeding these animals.
Animals are killed humanely so what’s the problem?
If one were to take that stance, one could take that stance on the killing of humans. “But Mrs. A was killed with a gun – ‘humanely’ so the murderer should be let off”. Simply put, whether animals are killed ‘humanely’ or not is irrelevant, the fact that they are killed unnecessarily is the point that is being made. Also, the majority of animals entered into the food chain are NOT killed in what is considered a ‘humane manner’ and their lives were no doubt full of suffering too especially in cases such as veal calves and foie gras (geese and ducks are force fed in order to fatten up their livers and make the livers diseased which will be turned into pate or other delicacies).
What about Free Range/Organic?
As all free-range animals are still viewed as objects to be killed for food, they are subject to abusive handling, transport, and slaughter. Free-range animals, like all animals used for their milk and eggs, are still slaughtered at a fraction of their normal life expectancy. Free range can also mean a mere 15 minutes outside a day for laying hens. As well as this in order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. Organic milk still isn’t any walk in the park. Cows still have to have their young taken away in order for milk to be taken for human consumption. Animals on organic farms still die for human greed.
But I love Cheese/Ice Cream/Milk too much to give them up!
There are plenty of delicious alternatives available including Rice Dream, Tofutti, Cheezly, Swedish Glace, and Alpro Soya and so on.
But tofu is yucky!
Being vegan does not necessarily mean you have to consume tofu. Some vegans don’t eat tofu or mock meats at all.
But my going vegan won’t stop animal suffering; it won’t change anything will it?
Those wonderful words by Margaret Mead 'Never doubt that a small group of concerned citizens can change the world, indeed, it has been the only thing that has' By abstaining from consuming animal products we no longer fund the exploitation and set an example of compassion to others. Short term- we save roughly over 100 animals a year by being vegan. Long term- we gather numbers that will eventually make exploitation of animals no longer economically viable. The numbers of vegans is always going up, profits going down.
For more info just read: http://purelyvegan.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&thread=22
In short, animals are not ours to use as we see fit. Put yourself in the animals position for once and see if you'd like to be used as humans use animals.
No, vegans eat a variety of different foods which usually fall into the main categories: Pulses, Grains, Nuts, Seeds, Pasta, Fruit, and Vegetables. Then there is mock meats, vegan cheese, soya milk, rice milk, and so on.
Where do vegans get their essential nutrients from?
Rough list:
• Protein: Wholegrains (e.g. wholewheat flour, bread and pasta, brown rice, oats, rye), nuts (e.g. hazels, cashews, brazils, almonds), seeds (sunflower, sesame, pumpkin), pulses (peas, beans, lentils), soya products (flour, soya milk, tofu, tempeh)
• Carbohydrates: Wholegrains, pulses, potatoes, fresh fruit, dried fruit
• Fats: Nuts and seeds (and their oils), vegan margarine, avocados
• Vitamin A - Carrots, spinach, pumpkins, tomatoes, dark greens, vegan margarines.
• Vitamin B - Nuts, wholegrains, oats, muesli, pulses (peas, beans, lentils), yeast extracts, green leafy vegetables, potatoes, mushrooms and dried fruit
• Vitamin B12 - Fortified yeast extracts (e.g. Marmite), soya milks (e.g. Plamil), TVP products, packeted veggie burger mixes, some cereals (e.g. Kellogg's Fruit & Fibre, Frosties or Common Sense Oat Bran Flakes). Seaweed and fermented products may contain some B12 but are not reliable sources.
• Vitamin C - Citrus fruits (e.g. oranges, lemons, grapefruit), red and blackcurrants, berries, green vegetables, potatoes
• Vitamin D - Action of sunlight on the skin, vegan margarines, some soya milks (e.g. Plamil)
• Vitamin E - Nuts, seeds, wholegrains, vegetable oils
• Calcium - Nuts, seeds, pulses, molasses, parsley, figs, sea vegetables, grains, fortified soya milks, hard tap water
• Iron - Nuts, seeds, pulses, grains, dried fruit, sea vegetables, parsley, green leafy vegetable
But it’s natural for humans to eat meat!
If it truly were natural for humans to eat meat we’d all be doing the behaviour without a second thought. Also, something that is natural does not automatically equate to it being right. Not to mention that humans need to process their meat in order for it to be easier to digest and also taste good to the palate. Naturally omnivorous animals do not process their meat in order to eat it. They eat it straight from the carcass as nature intended. Also, much of the meat that humans eat comes from animals far from their ancestors. Meat animals are selectively bred, genetically engineered and mutated so much that many of their characteristics and behaviours do not resemble that of their ancestors. Also, much of the meat humans eat comes from animals that are fed antibiotics – far from natural.
Don’t humans need meat to survive?
No, if that were so veganism (and branches of it) would be impossible, just as vegetarianism would be. One can even remain adequately healthy on a fruitarian diet (a diet that consists of fruit, nuts and seeds that have fallen naturally from a tree or plant). All the nutrients humans need in order to survive healthily can be obtained from non-animal sources. It should also be noted, a human living solely on a meat diet is likely to become seriously ill (and possibly die) whereas a human solely on a fruit and vegetable diet is more likely to thrive.
Humans cook their meat to get rid of bacteria!
No, humans cook their meat to make it taste nicer. Even before humans even contemplated the theory of small molecular organisms that caused illness and disease, humans processed their meat via cooking and seasoning and such.
But animals eat other animals so why shouldn’t we?!
Animals in the wild eat other animals to survive. We (well, we being the majority of the world) do not. Most humans consume and use animal products purely because of convenience and the moment’s satisfaction in the mouth (eating). Also, if one were to say that animals eat other animals in the wild so it’s ok for us to, then one can easily say that some animals DON’T eat other animals in the wild so it’s ok for us to do such too. Likewise, animals in the wild steal from other animals (i.e. some birds steal the eggs of others and raise them as their own), fight for dominance within hierarchies, kill the young of rival males, and so on. So if humans are willing to use animal behaviour as an excuse for something humans do, one could apply it to other things in life that humans do.
Why should we care about animals?
Most people believe that unnecessary suffering is bad. Other animals -- particularly vertebrates -- suffer physical pain and even emotional stress in much the same way humans do. Because of this, we should take animals' suffering seriously. Because animal products are not a necessary part of our diet, becoming vegan is one of the most effective ways to reduce animals' suffering. Another thing to think about is, how would you feel if you were in the position of the animals?
Won't the animals just die anyway? And if we don't eat the animals, won't they overrun the world?
We don't just happen to kill and eat animals to save them from dying a natural death. We breed more than 9 billion farm animals just in the U.S. each year because of the consumer demand for animal products. If we stop buying animal products, animal industries will have no incentive to keep breeding these animals.
Animals are killed humanely so what’s the problem?
If one were to take that stance, one could take that stance on the killing of humans. “But Mrs. A was killed with a gun – ‘humanely’ so the murderer should be let off”. Simply put, whether animals are killed ‘humanely’ or not is irrelevant, the fact that they are killed unnecessarily is the point that is being made. Also, the majority of animals entered into the food chain are NOT killed in what is considered a ‘humane manner’ and their lives were no doubt full of suffering too especially in cases such as veal calves and foie gras (geese and ducks are force fed in order to fatten up their livers and make the livers diseased which will be turned into pate or other delicacies).
What about Free Range/Organic?
As all free-range animals are still viewed as objects to be killed for food, they are subject to abusive handling, transport, and slaughter. Free-range animals, like all animals used for their milk and eggs, are still slaughtered at a fraction of their normal life expectancy. Free range can also mean a mere 15 minutes outside a day for laying hens. As well as this in order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. Organic milk still isn’t any walk in the park. Cows still have to have their young taken away in order for milk to be taken for human consumption. Animals on organic farms still die for human greed.
But I love Cheese/Ice Cream/Milk too much to give them up!
There are plenty of delicious alternatives available including Rice Dream, Tofutti, Cheezly, Swedish Glace, and Alpro Soya and so on.
But tofu is yucky!
Being vegan does not necessarily mean you have to consume tofu. Some vegans don’t eat tofu or mock meats at all.
But my going vegan won’t stop animal suffering; it won’t change anything will it?
Those wonderful words by Margaret Mead 'Never doubt that a small group of concerned citizens can change the world, indeed, it has been the only thing that has' By abstaining from consuming animal products we no longer fund the exploitation and set an example of compassion to others. Short term- we save roughly over 100 animals a year by being vegan. Long term- we gather numbers that will eventually make exploitation of animals no longer economically viable. The numbers of vegans is always going up, profits going down.
For more info just read: http://purelyvegan.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&thread=22
In short, animals are not ours to use as we see fit. Put yourself in the animals position for once and see if you'd like to be used as humans use animals.
Why would you drink or eat it? 75%+ the world is lactose intolerant. Milk is intended for a baby of the species, nothing else. It makes no sense to consume something that we're not meant to be consuming after weaning age, especially that of another species.
Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans – due to this milk consumption increases risk of osteoporosis. Milk also contains morphine as it is naturally created in the cow’s body which passes into the blood stream and then passes through into the udder. This and opiates within milk make it slightly addictive. By removing curds and whey to make cheese, the opiates are more concentrated and have about 1/10 the addictive power of morphine. As well as this pus will leak into the milk that is being withdrawn from the udder.
Milk is a substance created by the mammary glands of the cow for her calf to nourish itself on until it has been fully weaned. However, to gain milk for human consumption, the calf has to be disallowed this vital nutrition. This is done by taking away the calf 24-48 hours after birth. The cow also has to be continuously impregnated in order to keep up with the demand for cow’s milk.
If the calve is female she will most likely be selected as herd replacements for when the original cows have stopped producing the wanted amount of milk that the humans take. If the female calf has more than four teets the extra teets are sliced off. When a cow has reached the point where she is considered “commercially unviable” she will be sent off for slaughter. Calves that are reared for the cowshed usually spend their first 6-8 weeks of life confined individually in narrow pens. Taken from their mother, and unable to interact meaningfully with their fellows, these calves suffer behavioural deprivation, which can affect them for life. Alternatively, calves may be reared in groups. With either method, calves are usually fed by artificial teat or bucket.
If the calve is male he will either be exported to other countries for veal production or killed on site when he is a couple of days old. Veal production involves placing the calves individually into tiny narrow crates with ropes tied around their neck, and fed food that is deficient in specific nutrients such as iron. The whole aim of this is to make the calf anaemic and thus make their flesh “white and tender”. After 6-8 months of this intensive farming, the calves are sent off to slaughter.
The young calf is particularly vulnerable to disease. To help boost the calve's immunity, it is essential that they receive colostrum, the mother's first milk, which contains extra nutrients and antibodies against disease. However, calves born to mothers with long, pendulous udders can have difficulty locating the udder. Each year, about 170,000 calves die within their first month of life. Scouring (diarrhoea) and respiratory infections are common killers.
Also, due to the immense strain put on the cow being milked whilst pregnant, she is likely to do what is known as “the splits”. This is where the pressure from both being milked and carrying her unborn calf causes her back legs to give way. To stop the cow’s legs from doing “the splits”, farmers often shackle the back legs together.
Rennet: Cheese is made by coagulating milk to give curds which are then separated from the liquid, whey, after which they can be processed and matured to produce a wide variety of cheeses. Milk is coagulated by the addition of rennet. Rennet is a substance obtained from the stomach of a slaughtered newly born calf. Rennet is a by-product of the veal industry.
http://www.rense.com/general26/truth.htm
http://www.milksucks.com/index2.asp
http://www.notmilk.com/
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=147
http://www.friendsoffreedom.com/Writings/MilkNo.html
Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans – due to this milk consumption increases risk of osteoporosis. Milk also contains morphine as it is naturally created in the cow’s body which passes into the blood stream and then passes through into the udder. This and opiates within milk make it slightly addictive. By removing curds and whey to make cheese, the opiates are more concentrated and have about 1/10 the addictive power of morphine. As well as this pus will leak into the milk that is being withdrawn from the udder.
Milk is a substance created by the mammary glands of the cow for her calf to nourish itself on until it has been fully weaned. However, to gain milk for human consumption, the calf has to be disallowed this vital nutrition. This is done by taking away the calf 24-48 hours after birth. The cow also has to be continuously impregnated in order to keep up with the demand for cow’s milk.
If the calve is female she will most likely be selected as herd replacements for when the original cows have stopped producing the wanted amount of milk that the humans take. If the female calf has more than four teets the extra teets are sliced off. When a cow has reached the point where she is considered “commercially unviable” she will be sent off for slaughter. Calves that are reared for the cowshed usually spend their first 6-8 weeks of life confined individually in narrow pens. Taken from their mother, and unable to interact meaningfully with their fellows, these calves suffer behavioural deprivation, which can affect them for life. Alternatively, calves may be reared in groups. With either method, calves are usually fed by artificial teat or bucket.
If the calve is male he will either be exported to other countries for veal production or killed on site when he is a couple of days old. Veal production involves placing the calves individually into tiny narrow crates with ropes tied around their neck, and fed food that is deficient in specific nutrients such as iron. The whole aim of this is to make the calf anaemic and thus make their flesh “white and tender”. After 6-8 months of this intensive farming, the calves are sent off to slaughter.
The young calf is particularly vulnerable to disease. To help boost the calve's immunity, it is essential that they receive colostrum, the mother's first milk, which contains extra nutrients and antibodies against disease. However, calves born to mothers with long, pendulous udders can have difficulty locating the udder. Each year, about 170,000 calves die within their first month of life. Scouring (diarrhoea) and respiratory infections are common killers.
Also, due to the immense strain put on the cow being milked whilst pregnant, she is likely to do what is known as “the splits”. This is where the pressure from both being milked and carrying her unborn calf causes her back legs to give way. To stop the cow’s legs from doing “the splits”, farmers often shackle the back legs together.
Rennet: Cheese is made by coagulating milk to give curds which are then separated from the liquid, whey, after which they can be processed and matured to produce a wide variety of cheeses. Milk is coagulated by the addition of rennet. Rennet is a substance obtained from the stomach of a slaughtered newly born calf. Rennet is a by-product of the veal industry.
http://www.rense.com/general26/truth.htm
http://www.milksucks.com/index2.asp
http://www.notmilk.com/
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=147
http://www.friendsoffreedom.com/Writings/MilkNo.html
I've milked my share of cows in my life and they are NOT killed to get milk.
Calves are kept with the mother and they are raised to either become breeding stock, or for slaughter.
Calves are considered full grown at 1 year old (as is the case with most animals) Bull calves are gelded and turned into steers. This allows them to put on weight faster. The heifers are kept with the herd and bred.
Calves that are slaughtered when less than 1 year old are turned into veal. You might think that the animals are treated badly and disease ridden and what not--but when you are in a 'for profit' business, you don't mistreat your stock. It's just not done. You do what you can to insure the health of your stock--it brings a better price. That goes with anything. If your chickens make it to market and they are dead--guess what? YOU DON'T GET PAID!! So all those months of tending your animals, and all the thousands of dollars you spent in vet bills and on feed just went out the window.
I know that there are some really extreme feelings on both sides of the vegan/meat eater issue.
And while I have no issue eating meat, I also have no issue with those that don't eat meat. All I ask is that they afford me the same courtesy that I give them. I don't preach to them as they eat a salad with a balsamic vinagrette, so don't preach to me while I have a nice, juicy, tender steak.
Calves are kept with the mother and they are raised to either become breeding stock, or for slaughter.
Calves are considered full grown at 1 year old (as is the case with most animals) Bull calves are gelded and turned into steers. This allows them to put on weight faster. The heifers are kept with the herd and bred.
Calves that are slaughtered when less than 1 year old are turned into veal. You might think that the animals are treated badly and disease ridden and what not--but when you are in a 'for profit' business, you don't mistreat your stock. It's just not done. You do what you can to insure the health of your stock--it brings a better price. That goes with anything. If your chickens make it to market and they are dead--guess what? YOU DON'T GET PAID!! So all those months of tending your animals, and all the thousands of dollars you spent in vet bills and on feed just went out the window.
I know that there are some really extreme feelings on both sides of the vegan/meat eater issue.
And while I have no issue eating meat, I also have no issue with those that don't eat meat. All I ask is that they afford me the same courtesy that I give them. I don't preach to them as they eat a salad with a balsamic vinagrette, so don't preach to me while I have a nice, juicy, tender steak.
Princess and Dynastygal just had farm experiences on the opposite side of the spectrum, while the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Sure there's abusive farmers and holy farmers, but overall the animal trauma will be kept as low as possible without extensive effort, simply because it allows them to raise price.
Also, milk and cancer have a correlation, there's no causation.
Sure there's abusive farmers and holy farmers, but overall the animal trauma will be kept as low as possible without extensive effort, simply because it allows them to raise price.
Also, milk and cancer have a correlation, there's no causation.
I am a meat and vegetable eater and don't really care what happens to the food I eat.
There is no such thing as a humane way of killing anything as forcibly taking the life of anything isn't humane.
If eating meat causes cancer and other horrible diseases then why don't any of the animals that eat it get cancer and die from it?
There is no such thing as a humane way of killing anything as forcibly taking the life of anything isn't humane.
If eating meat causes cancer and other horrible diseases then why don't any of the animals that eat it get cancer and die from it?
But he's right in a lot of it is the 'value' that we place on an animal. In parts of Asia it is quite common to eat dogs, cats, and even horses--go in expensive restaurants and it's on the menu. While in this country, those animals have almost 'human' status.
In India, their culture is not to eat cows--something that we think of as an everyday experience.
Different Strokes for Different Folks.
In India, their culture is not to eat cows--something that we think of as an everyday experience.
Different Strokes for Different Folks.
