Guns

[xneseyx]

if you outlaw guns it will only make gun crimes worse, in my opinion. some people need guns so that they can gather food for their families, because hunting can actually be cheaper (in some cases) than going all the way into town and buying the food and then coming all the way back home. and also, hunting your own meal provides a person with a sense of pride, like Look at what I did. I'm feeding my family. kind of thing.

 

[hotspot]

I don't like guns, I think they should make it that no one can have guns.

 

[Sam.]

Guns shouldn't be outlawed. However, they should be distributed to people with legitimate reasons for owning guns. From what I know of the Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms, I don't like the United States' gun laws. In Australia, a firearm license is required to purchase a gun, and you need a legitimate reason for owning one.



Something which I found interesting on the subject of gun politics is Bowling for Columbine. In the beginning of the film, Michael Moore opens an account with a bank and is given a free rifle. Only in America, right?

 

[Millennium]

We have enough gun laws...Just enforce the ones we have....It's a over used statement, but so true:



When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns. They re not going away, the genie is already out of the bottle.

 

[civilwarrocks]

They shouldn't be outlawed, & under American law shouldn't even be regulated.

 

[Temerit]

You arguments don't have a lot of basis in reality, but that's ok, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I won't debate this you anymore, and probably shouldn't have started in the first place. Enjoy your idyllic Utopia and I'll enjoy mine.

That’s the typical conservative viewpoint. Lets just forget about the issue, that thousands of people that die in the United States by gun related crimes this year. Since I haven’t been killed its obviously not my problem. I hate that.

Well said. I agree. I think its rediculous for people to outlaw something just because it could hurt people. If they did that, they would outlaw EVERYTHING.

Guns are made to kill, penetrate, and destroy. Nothing else useful can be done with them. Collect something else please.

I defy you to prove that glasses can see without a person behind them, the same way I defy you to prove that a gun can kill without a person behind it.

It takes the combination of both… which is why the gun needs to be taken out of the equation.

Nope. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Not true. If guns are outlawed and the manufacturing of them is outlawed, outlaws will be hard pressed to have guns, conceal them, and to hide the trace of them.

if you outlaw guns it will only make gun crimes worse, in my opinion.”

Well, the facts say otherwise. In countries were guns are outlawed, severe crime rates decrease.

hunting your own meal provides a person with a sense of pride, like Look at what I did. I'm feeding my family. kind of thing.

Is that sense of pride really worth the number of lives that making having guns legal claims?

Guns shouldn't be outlawed. However, they should be distributed to people with legitimate reasons for owning guns. From what I know of the Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms, I don't like the United States' gun laws. In Australia, a firearm license is required to purchase a gun, and you need a legitimate reason for owning one.

I could settle for this. Stricter laws surrounding how guns are obtained.. although that may not do much good anyway.

They shouldn't be outlawed, & under American law shouldn't even be regulated.

Not even regulated???? You are out of your mind.

 

[civilwarrocks]

OK Temerit, it's obvious you like fact based reason & argument. I respect that. So let's look at the facts shall we. Please note the word exterminate is not meant to offend but rather to reveal the mindset of the governments listed below.



In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953 over 20 million noncommunist dissidents were exterminated by the Soviet government.



In 1911 Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated by the Turkish government.



In 1938 Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945 a total of 13 million Jews & other individiuals considerred unacceptable to society were exterminated by the German government.



In 1935 China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952 20 million poliitcal dissidents were exterminated by the Chinese government.



In 1964 Guatamala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981 100,000 Mayans were exterminated by the Guatamalan government.



In 1970 Uganda established gun congrol. From 1971 to 1979 300,000 Christians were exterminated by the Ugandan government.



In 1956 Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977 1,000,000 educated people were exterminated by the Cambodian government



A total of 56,000,000 died in the 20th century thanks to gun control.



When Australia instituted gun control citizens were asked to turn in firearms to be destroyed by the government. This program cost Australian taxpayers more than $500,000,000. In the first year the Australian homicide rate was raised by 3.2%. Assults were up 8.6%. Armed roberies went up 44%. In the state of Victoria homicides involving firearms went up 300%. While the law abiding citizens turned in their weapons the criminals did not & the criminals still posessed firearms. Australian politicians are still at a loss to explain why public safety has decreased.



These facts are not shared by the American media. Mostly because the American media wants gun control. The simple fact is that when citizens are armed they are safer.



As for my saying it should not be regulated, the second ammendent states that The right of the poeple to keep & bear arms shall not be enfringed. This means that no license should be required for a citizen to draw on thier own rights.



By the way, I like your quotes. Especially the Jimi Hendrix one.

 

[Masri]

I didn't read all of this topic...



But no, guns should not be outlawed. Many people use them as defense. Say someone breaks into your house with a gun. If guns were not outlawed, then you could pull out your gun and defend yourself. However, they were outlawed and you obeyed the law, then you would left defenseless. Odds are if someone is in your house, they don't care if they break another law.



Dead you.



Outlawing guns would make it worse, not better.

 

[Corleone]

Do guns kill people, or do people kill people?

 

[civilwarrocks]

Do guns kill people, or do people kill people?

Poeple kill people. No gun has ever floated into a store & robbed the cashier.

 

[Temerit]

OK Temerit, it's obvious you like fact based reason & argument. I respect that. So let's look at the facts shall we. Please note the word exterminate is not meant to offend but rather to reveal the mindset of the governments listed below.

Let us not forget the word reason. In Germany... the vast majority of those Jews were not even from Germany, they were shipped into Poland, and Germany, the gun control laws in Germany hadn't effected them in the Eastern European countries they were in, they wouldn't have had a chance anyway, they did not know they were being taken to their deaths, they did not know what was planned for them.



Stalin.... yes he committed genocide. But would allowing the populace to have arms really stop the red army? The people of the USSR were loyal to Stalin. And after Stalin died in 1953 did they repeal gun control? Or did they leave it? If they left it did they mass murdering continue? Is your list full of examples of where gun control resulted in millions of lives lost or examples of where totalitarian dictatorships result in millions of lives lost?



Can you site an example of a democracy where the implementation of gun control lead to a rise in gun related violence?



I don't know where you are getting your data about Austrailia from, but here is a nice .pdf to read, yes it is by the former head of the coalition for gun control in Austrailia, but still a good lead.



And here is the official data for gun related crime in Australia from 1988 until 2000.



Australian Gun Control Data

The simple fact is that when citizens are armed they are safer.

I don't think any fact concerning this issue is that clean cut and simple, but I fail to see how this is true.. it is a very rare occasion that a gun saves a homeowner from a criminal, and I fail to see how guns can really be seen as the answer to fighting gun-related violence.

As for my saying it should not be regulated, the second ammendent states that The right of the poeple to keep & bear arms shall not be enfringed. This means that no license should be required for a citizen to draw on thier own rights.

I thought we were debating the concept of gun control itself, not its constitutionality. I know gun control won't be implemented in America anytime this century, there are too many conservative punks for that. The constitution can be amended though.



Thanks for the feedback about my quotes. Sometimes I hate debating... it makes you feel like such an ass. But then again, I'm doing this because I feel its important, I mean establishing gun control would save lives... I feel that it's my duty to those people to educate others concerning the issue. But then again, this is an issue where I really don't feel too strongly about. There are many other far more glaring problems with conservative ideology, especially the conservative ideology of today.

But no, guns should not be outlawed. Many people use them as defense. Say someone breaks into your house with a gun. If guns were not outlawed, then you could pull out your gun and defend yourself. However, they were outlawed and you obeyed the law, then you would left defenseless. Odds are if someone is in your house, they don't care if they break another law.



Dead you.



Outlawing guns would make it worse, not better.

Unfortunately both the facts and logic disagree with you, armed crime actually declined in Australia due to strict gun control laws. And if someone is to rob your house, you really think they would decide to murder you just because? I really don't think armed robberies are usually robbing domestic residencies. Criminals who are carrying weapons to coerce those they rob and are willing to murder are going to be robbing banks, and stores, not your average middle class home.

Do guns kill people, or do people kill people?

Do people with guns kill people?

 

[Corleone]

Sure. The gun is their weapon of choice, but the motive stays the same.

 

[Temerit]

A gun makes it so much easier.

 

[civilwarrocks]

A gun makes it so much easier.

Did you even read my post?

 

[Temerit]

Yeah, I responded

 

[Corleone]

Let's cool it down. You've both said what you've wanted to say, and we'll leave it at that.

Personally, I see both sides to the story. First side, guns make it easier to kill, therefore, should be outlawed. Second side, people kill people with guns, and guns don't kill people. Yes, guns are the weapon of choice, but their motives remain the same. Both sides have good, legitimate arguments, and I'm afraid it's undebatable at this point. Doubtfully, changing someone's viewpoint won't happen.

 

[Temerit]

See I hate this, I always come off as seeming offensive

I just find it sad that people must die because of conservatives and their gun rights.

 

[Corleone]

I see where you're coming from. I'll say that I'm for gun rights until I experience the negative effects of guns. I don't completely oppose guns, because I love to hunt and do target practice, but I oppose the way anyone off the street can purchase a gun.

 

[Sam.]

When Australia instituted gun control citizens were asked to turn in firearms to be destroyed by the government. This program cost Australian taxpayers more than $500,000,000. In the first year the Australian homicide rate was raised by 3.2%. Assults were up 8.6%. Armed roberies went up 44%. In the state of Victoria homicides involving firearms went up 300%. While the law abiding citizens turned in their weapons the criminals did not & the criminals still posessed firearms. Australian politicians are still at a loss to explain why public safety has decreased.

*sigh*



You don't live in Australia, so I don't think that you should judge how safe Australian citizens are. That 300% figure seems like a lot, although in actual fact, it would have been a few deaths. I watch the news and read the newspapers, and murders aren't incredibly common in Australia. Armed robbery isn't as uncommon, but it's usually confined to shops, not people's houses. I'm not saying that Australia is crime free, but you don't know what you're on about.

OK Temerit, it's obvious you like fact based reason & argument. I respect that. So let's look at the facts shall we. Please note the word exterminate is not meant to offend but rather to reveal the mindset of the governments listed below.



In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953 over 20 million noncommunist dissidents were exterminated by the Soviet government.



In 1911 Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated by the Turkish government.



In 1938 Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945 a total of 13 million Jews & other individiuals considerred unacceptable to society were exterminated by the German government.



In 1935 China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952 20 million poliitcal dissidents were exterminated by the Chinese government.



In 1964 Guatamala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981 100,000 Mayans were exterminated by the Guatamalan government.



In 1970 Uganda established gun congrol. From 1971 to 1979 300,000 Christians were exterminated by the Ugandan government.



In 1956 Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977 1,000,000 educated people were exterminated by the Cambodian government



A total of 56,000,000 died in the 20th century thanks to gun control.

56 Million people were killed by extremist governments. I think that the Obama Administration would know better.

These facts are not shared by the American media. Mostly because the American media wants gun control. The simple fact is that when citizens are armed they are safer.

But when the criminals are armed, they are dangerous, and nobody can tell whether somebody who goes and buys a pistol will kill someone or practice their aim on targets.

 

[civilwarrocks]

I thought we were debating the concept of gun control itself, not its constitutionality. I know gun control won't be implemented in America anytime this century, there are too many conservative punks for that. The constitution can be amended though.

So... you're admitting you wish to destroy the Constitution & that you dislike the human right to keep & bear arms & the people who wish to preserve said human right? If so then we're making great progress here. I've always found it interresting that those who wish to usurp our constitutional rights will never admit their derision towards the Constitution itself. Finally someone who wants to take our rights away & admits it! You're right on the one hand that we are debating the concept of gun control itself, however if you wish to speak on gun control in general you cannot focus on one tiny aspect of it. The Constitution grants all US citizens the right to keep & bear arms.

A gun makes it so much easier.

Well knives make it easy to kill people too. Let's apply your logic to knives. Any street thug can go out & purchase & knife, then go out & stab someone on the subway. Sure, harmless housewives use large knives for cooking & millions of people use steak knives to cut meat everyday, but we need to protect the public! After all, a knife makes it so much easier...



In closing, there are two facts which could destroy your argument on their own.

1. The Constitution prevents the American government from being able to ban guns. All American citizens are garunteed the right to keep & bear arms. It's people like you who want to take that right away.

2. Gun control does not make people safer, in most cases it makes them less safe. Gun control zealots like to name Columbine & Virginia Tech as examples of why we need gun control. Ironically both of these shootings were in gun free zones. I guess the murderers couldn't read the signs informing them that they weren't allowed to kill anyone. In April of last year 14 were killed in a shooting in Binghamton, New York. Interestingly, the state of New York has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country.



Gun control is unconstitutional & statistic after statistic proves that it makes the citizen less safe. As your liberal friends like to say, the debate is over.