Guns

[Temerit]

Finally someone who wants to take our rights away & admits it!

Mmk, you are crossing a line here. I am libertarian and I'm am in full support of the preservation of our rights and civil liberties. Gun rights are the one exception, I would be willing to take away gun rights, or at least add strict control to save lives. To reduce crime.

The Constitution prevents the American government from being able to ban guns. All American citizens are garunteed the right to keep & bear arms. It's people like you who want to take that right away.

Yes, I would take that right away. To save lives and reduce crime. I would also legalize marijuana. But get this through your head. The constitution CAN be amended, and it has been 27 times! The bill of rights was not originally part of the constitution, but was later added as an AMENDMENT. Your point here is totally bogus because the same exact manner in which the right to bear arms was added to the constitution is how it would be removed.

Gun control zealots like to name Columbine & Virginia Tech as examples of why we need gun control. Ironically both of these shootings were in gun free zones. I guess the murderers couldn't read the signs informing them that they weren't allowed to kill anyone. In April of last year 14 were killed in a shooting in Binghamton, New York. Interestingly, the state of New York has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country.

This argument just reeks a lack of thought. Gun control would ban or strictly limit guns across the entire united states. Guns would be strictly monitored on the border. In New York.... HELLO. A person can purchase a gun in any state, put it in their pocket, drive to New York and use it despite the availability of guns in New York itself. This argument fails to even make a proper point.

Gun control is unconstitutional & statistic after statistic proves that it makes the citizen less safe.

Did you even read my last post? I'm sure this is one of the statistics you are referring to.... Australian Pre and Post Gun Control Crime Data. No? Perhaps you could link me to the statistic after statistic that proves that a lack of guns in a society makes them less safe.

As your liberal friends like to say, the debate is over.

I've never said that. Stop trying to use the word liberal as an insulting term. First of all it's misleading, inaccurate, and doesn't even have a negative connotation with properly educated people.



But as far as I'm concerned, based on your last reply, you were grasping. I think the debate really is over.

 

[DrLeftover]

If guns cause violence, matches cause arson.

 

[Temerit]

Alright, just disregard all the facts and keep supporting laws that result in thousands of deaths.



Nobody fucking said guns cause violence, or that guns kill people. The fact is that the widespread legality of guns result in deaths and a dramatic increase in crime as opposed to them being outlawed.

 

[Nebulous's iconNebulous]

Alright, just disregard all the facts and keep supporting laws that result in thousands of deaths.



Nobody fucking said guns cause violence, or that guns kill people.

Need a hug?

Anyways if they made guns illegal it wouldn't change anything. Its so easy to get an illegal gun its not even funny. One time I even had a neighbor where I used to live open his trunk and show me a selection of guns and asked me if I wanted to buy one.

Chances are most gun crimes are committed by those who have illegal guns anwyays. Those who took the time to legally buy and register their guns are more responsible with them.

 

[Temerit]

I just saw a facebook group titled if guns kill people, do pencils mispell words and I was looking at their pictures, like this one:

This kind of thing just makes me slap my forehead. Yes!! Lets model Iraq because they have so much less violence than we do in the U.S.!! Lets give every family an automatic rifle and see how things turn out!

Are you really suggesting arming students to deter a murderer?

Anyways if they made guns illegal it wouldn't change anything. Its so easy to get an illegal gun its not even funny. One time I even had a neighbor where I used to live open his trunk and show me a selection of guns and asked me if I wanted to buy one.

And how do those illegal guns get inside the United States? Are you sure your neighbor's were illegal? Its just that the facts show, after Australia instituted gun control, the number of homicides, armed robberies etc has dropped significantly.

 

[Nebulous's iconNebulous]

And how do those illegal guns get inside the United States? Are you sure your neighbor's were illegal?

Yeah well the fact that after I said No Thanks he said You didnt see anything here.

or something like that.. I dont remember exactly..

 

[DrLeftover]

Go read this.



No... go read this now....



Then we shall continue the discussion.



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/594675/posts

 

[Temerit]

I completely disregard that article.



Jamaica is not a modernized nation, their law enforcement is nothing compared to ours. Austrailia on the other hand is a modernized nation in which gun control was implemented much more recently (in the 80s). There we see that in a modernized nation with a good police force, the huge criminal gangs are nothing. In the United States, if these gangs come out in the open we have police, national guard, swat etc. They stand no chance.

 

[DrLeftover]

So you think in our modern nation that the criminals will stand in line with the honest law abiding citizens and turn in their weapons when they have the collection at the police station?

 

[Temerit]

No, but I really don't think it will result in a nation ruled by warlords and where crime goes uncontrolled. That just doesn't make sense, and is why the Jamaica comparison doesn't make any sense either.



But in America, gun control would be hard to implement, and would be expensive, because of how many guns are really out there and how many people have them.

 

[DrLeftover]

OK... these from the BBC and a paper are a bit dated.



But Great Britain is a modern country not run by thugs and private firearms have been banned there for years.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/capital-gun-crime-rises-by-50-per-cent-524068.html

 

[Temerit]

OK... these from the BBC and a paper are a bit dated.



But Great Britain is a modern country not run by thugs and private firearms have been banned there for years.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

Can these instances be related to gun control? You have to be relative here, sure crime rates fluctuate, how is the crime rate there compared to here? In this time frame the gun laws in UK weren't altered, so I fail to see the significance.



From the article:



Mr Denham denied the government had rushed into new plans against gun crime.



He said said rising gun violence was only a small part of overall crime



---



And he said the rise in gun crime was linked to the huge increase in the drugs culture that's taking place in the cities that's literally ripping apart the inner cities, breaking this fabric down.



NOT the presence of gun control laws.

Here are some stats for you;

Since 2008 the number of privately owned guns was 7 million. It is now at 75 million. In that timeframe, crime has dropped 43%.

Gee.... Think there is a correlation there????

In the past two years the number of guns owned has increased tenfold? Where are you getting your numbers from?

I fail to see how people think that gun ownership is likely to reduce violence.

 

[Yoda]

Yes they should be outlawed.



Guns are only manufactured for one reason and one reason only and that is to kill. That could



I don't believe that it would sort all the worlds problems if they were outlawed, but it would go along way to help sorting out countries like the USA that has a high murder rate that involves firearms.



Here in the UK we have very strict laws when it comes to firearms due to the Hungerford Massacre where 16 people were killed and many more injured when a man went on the rampage for over an hour with a Type 56 assault rifle, M1 carbine and Beretta 92 and also the Dunblane Massacre where 16 very young children (age 4&5) and their teacher was gun downed in school. A certain famous tennis player from Scotland was in that very school as it happened...Andy Murray.



Unfortunately is seems to be a fashion statement in the USA to own a gun, which is crazy when they have a bigger problem than most other countries.



Not until America realise that allowing people to own firearms is wrong they will always have the problems they do.

 

[Jazzy]

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives



http://gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

 

[DrLeftover]

guns are a fashion statement???



Why yes, I find wearing a .357 around my neck as very fashionable.



Where did you get that idea? I'm just wondering.



Evidently the BBC had a different idea in 2003.

Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.



The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for very serious offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.

...



But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.



You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

 

[Temerit]

Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high.

That's because police try as hard as possible to take someone alive.

vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the Safest State Award.

Does that have to do with gun laws or the type of people there?



---



I just don't think people should be able to own assault weapons. Handguns are fine.

 

[Howard]

Do the maths and see what you think.



UK population 61 million. Firearm related deaths per year around 80.



USA population around 250 million. Firearm related deaths per year around 10,000.



More guns = more deaths and that is indisputable.



See list below for gun related deaths per 100,000 population by county.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate



Notice that the USA is the 4th highest in the world. Only Brazil, Estonia and Mexico are higher.



If you still think having a society full of guns is a good idea, then you're plainly either misguided or just stupid.

 

[Temerit]

If you still think having a society full of guns is a good idea, then you're plainly either misguided or just stupid.

Not really, you have to take into account culture, the fact that Americans are mostly dumbasses and the levels of poverty in these countries.

 

[Howard]

The thing is I don't see Americans as dumbasses as you put it. In fact I usually think of Americans as being rather intelligent.



I just have a hard time getting to grips with why some Americans have such a hard time seeing the correlation between guns and death. Especially when there is so much evidence to support it. It's as though they are conditioned to ignore the facts.



Perhaps the way of the gun is just too engrained in the American psyche?

 

[Temerit]

Well, shit like this doesn't help.



http://gunowners.org/sk0802.htm



But yeah, somehow its become part of our culture, there are scholarships offered for writing an essay in defense of the 2nd ammendment, there are pro-gun rights groups everywhere.