UN: LGBTQ Equality In America "Not Within Reach"

[Scarlet Rose]

Absolutely 100% agreed, just because a culture has two genders doesn't mean there can't be variances within them, and the Maasai are a fantastic example of that. Biological sex plays just a minor role in their gender, and that's acceptable as that's their culture. It's staggering to think that we've become so closed off to the ideas of variance that we're now here, in this point and time, supposedly more enlightened than ever, and yet we're seeing bomb threats on children's hospitals because they engage in gender-affirming care, which is "wrong" to some people. Astounding how backwards we've become.

Although even when it comes to things like human biology, our culture still influences the way we perceive and understand it. Deborah Lupton references Gallagher and Laquer

Scholars have only recently discovered that the human body itself has a history. Not only has it been perceived, interpreted, and represented differently in different epochs, but it has also been lived differently, brought into being within widely dissimilar material cultures, subjected to various technologies and means of control, and incorporated into different rhythms of production and consumption, pleasure and pain.

Lupton herself later goes on to state

The human body can no longer be considered a given reality, but as the product of certain kinds of knowledge which are subject to change. As Haraway (1989:10) remarks: 'odies then, are not born: they are made.' This is not to say that the body is a purely discursive construct, possessing no physical reality; indeed, the body may be viewed as 'an admixture of discourse and matter, one whose inseparability is a critical, though complex, attribute.'

Which is why I usually speak of things like the dual processes of embodiment and enculturation and try to not lose sight of the fact that the biological and sociocultural mutually constitute each other.

The work in general on gender and sex within fields like cultural/social anthropology is really interesting. It can become even more engaging when you start also including insights from fields like medical anthropology and neuroanthropology. Although the book I have been quoting from in this post is from medical sociology. Just think, if you lived in the same city as me, you could freely borrow from my personal library. I have like 1,400 books from the social sciences. Granted I have only read like 300 of them. One day...one day.

What they are doing is really shocking and it has been going on for decades now. It is essentially the same playbook that was used against homosexuals in the 1980s and 90s. It was earlier used against ethnic minorities as well.

When it's an issue like this one, where the evidence is clear as day, the opposition just loves to stomp their feet and throw a fit because they want their side to be right. It goes from fact exchanging intellectual debate to whomever shouts loudest wins in their mind, very quickly!

I also don't want to defend evolutionary psychologists as they were simply defending the status quo. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists tried to dress their ethnocentric heterosexism up as science, but it was incredibly superficial and filled with inaccuracies, misdirection and flaws. It was essentially a smoke and mirrors trick. Even when they attempted to address the vast quantity of cross cultural and historical data they did so in quite deceptive ways.

 

[PGen98]

Although even when it comes to things like human biology, our culture still influences the way we perceive and understand it. Deborah Lupton references Gallagher and Laquer



Lupton herself later goes on to state

Absolutely right, like science itself, biological understanding evolves as we gain greater insight, things are not just as black and white as "this means this and always will," if that were the case the sun would still revolve around us. It was fact that the solar system was Earth-centric and all planets and the sun revolve around it, but we learned that's not true and we adapted to the reality of the situation. It takes some of us longer to adapt to certain realities, but science is science.

Which is why I usually speak of things like the dual processes of embodiment and enculturation and try to not lose sight of the fact that the biological and sociocultural mutually constitute each other.

Absolutely they do!

The work in general on gender and sex within fields like cultural/social anthropology is really interesting. It can become even more engaging when you start also including insights from fields like medical anthropology and neuroanthropology. Although the book I have been quoting from in this post is from medical sociology. Just think, if you lived in the same city as me, you could freely borrow from my personal library. I have like 1,400 books from the social sciences. Granted I have only read like 300 of them. One day...one day.

That's a lofty goal, getting through all of those, but you'll get there! Enticing offer getting to read through that kind of library!

What they are doing is really shocking and it has been going on for decades now. It is essentially the same playbook that was used against homosexuals in the 1980s and 90s. It was earlier used against ethnic minorities as well.

Oh most definitely, it's pass the ignorance baton down the line from group to group. Today it's trans people, but we were passed it from gay people and we carry on down the line of every marginalized group from history, not that those groups have fully escaped the baton of ignorance, people still hate gay people, racism is still a thing, it's just who is the shiny new punching bag to whom the baton gets passed. One day it will be the next group's turn to take the baton from trans people.

I also don't want to defend evolutionary psychologists as they were simply defending the status quo. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists tried to dress their ethnocentric heterosexism up as science, but it was incredibly superficial and filled with inaccuracies, misdirection and flaws. It was essentially a smoke and mirrors trick. Even when they attempted to address the vast quantity of cross cultural and historical data they did so in quite deceptive ways.

Pseudoscience will always try to disguise itself as science and pass itself off to whomever will listen. It's a true shame.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

You are still not making the case for why the sociocultural and the biological are the same thing.

Only over and over.

Gender and sex are related but they are not the same.

They are but today’s insanity has done a good job of making it confusing for everyone. So good job on that madness.

Gender refers to the sociocultural and sex refers to the biological.

In your world I’m sure it does.

Keeping the sociocultural and biological as two separate concepts helps with cross-cultural and historical studies.

It creates bat shit crazy.

It is useful for understanding, thinking about and explaining society.

No it’s not and never has been because sane thinking people know we only have two sexes and you can’t change it.

Our argument is over whether or not gender and sex are the same thing.

And they are.

The way you respond to my examples and arguments is critiquing them on the grounds that they are not biological.

I respond to them that you can’t change your biological sex/gender, but you can pretend.

When they are literally sociocultural examples.

No they aren’t.

I talk about gender having cross cultural and historical variance in how it is perceived and experienced.

Yes 7000 posts later I get that amusing point.

You then pretend that my examples are about sex.

I know they are. But please show me a guy having a kid. I’m waiting!

It isn't about pretending.

This is the very definition of pretend.

It is simply about the imperfect relationship between the biological and sociocultural.

It’s fantasy.

There can, and will be, mismatches between individuals in a society and the respective sociocultural system.

There will be cultural problems creating these issues in society.

This part of our conversation I was giving examples that were about generalized biology.

And yet I have not seen a guy have a kid.

So for your understanding, at this point I am not specifically talking about sex.

You might not be but I am and there is no difference

I am talking about human biology in its generalized entirety.

Of course it makes it easy to forward a agenda.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

Never had a confusion on my end no matter how much you try to mix up the conversation.

It is the exact opposite,

It’s not.

it is necessary in order to clarify the subject at hand.

Nope!

Gender is a sociocultural concept and sex is a biological one.

Never has been until now and the creation of a made up word.

It is needed,

It really isn’t.

therefore, on a general level to have an understanding of the relationship between the sociocultural and biological.

People pretending to be other sexes, animals, fairies and more, yes we’ve all seen the madness.

My entire argument is based on the relationship between the two and how they mutually constitute each other.

Your argument.

Gender is, after all, acquired through the dual processes of enculturation and embodiment.

😂

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Its' a loaded question demanding a response which I'm simply not going to give you because its' not worth wasting any breath over to give.

Of course you aren’t, you know it is but you have a agenda and your agenda trumps mental health of Americans

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

I hope so too, since I think it is important to be familiar with the literature and data on topics you have a personal interest in. While it wasn't directed at me, I was inspired by the discussions here to further my learning on the subject of gender. That will be the final class towards the completion of my BA next year. A shame it isn't an anthropology one, but Human Development will do.

Yeah, education in crazy fantasy land ain’t gonna happen

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

It is incredibly discouraging and disheartening to see this trends playing out. Firstly, and most importantly because of the all to real cost they have on people's lives. We had not even reached a point of parity, yet we are finding the gains which had been made are getting rolled back. Secondly we are finding the same tired arguments about sex and gender being presented as if they had not already been consistently disproven. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them started arguing that women shouldn't go to university because learning science makes them infertile.

Yup! States are moving towards ending butchering children in hospitals. Sorry not sorry!

 

[PGen98]

Yup! States are moving towards ending butchering children in hospitals. Sorry not sorry!

Seems like a real authority on the situation, can't even get his basic terminology right...I'm sure he's very well educated on the subject at hand.

The butchering children rhetoric, still? Even though you've yet to show shred of evidence outside of right wing scare sites CLAIMING it's happening, or highlighting the rare cases of people who regret transitioning...can't wait for the right to move onto their next target and bugger that up, too. Can't wait for suicide rates among trans minors to skyrocket from this ignorance, because a group of cranky old men who don't know the first thing about what they're talking about have to have their way.

 

[Webster]

Seems like a real authority on the situation, can't even get his basic terminology right...I'm sure he's very well educated on the subject at hand.

Yeah, your doctor in the video there, Serafin, can't even get his terms straight and we're supposed to listen?

Did you fall off the hurricane bus once again?

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Seems like a real authority on the situation, can't even get his basic terminology right...I'm sure he's very well educated on the subject at hand.







This satire showing just how ugly and evil this is.








The butchering children rhetoric,






Just fact it’s just that.





still? Even though you've yet to show shred of evidence outside of right wing scare sites CLAIMING it's happening,







I’ve showed you proof, just not convenient for your ideology.







or highlighting the rare cases of people who regret transitioning...





You mean just ignoring what I’ve shown you😂






can't wait for the right to move onto their next target and bugger that up, too.




The right, left and parents in general aren’t moving on from this.






Can't wait for suicide rates among trans minors to skyrocket from this ignorance,







Suicides are going to skyrocket because minors years from now are going to regret something as adults and they can’t reverse it.








because a group of cranky old men who don't know the first thing about what they're talking about have to have their way.






Cranky parents from a disgusting ideology.

But this is a topic that ain’t going away and protests are being coming to these hospitals.


Latest video about these butchers just in.

 

[Webster]

Latest video about these butchers just in.

Ahhh, great, yarmulke-boy....

 

[PGen98]

But this is a topic that ain’t going away and protests are being coming to these hospitals.


Latest video about these butchers just in.

Nice job butchering the quotes!

No, you haven't shown any proof, just right wing nonsense, and no, suicide rates amongst trans youth went down significantly with affirming care and depression levels dropped well into adulthood. The rates will return if the right's ignorance continues along this path.

LMAO Ben Shapiro, THAT'S your go-to? Even the right don't take him seriously.

 

[Webster]

Nice job butchering the quotes!

@WHO IS SERAFIN is a legend at pulling the quote mine, which is defined by TV Tropes as...

a dirty, rotten, low-down trick, one of The Oldest Ones in the Book, and is a subtrope of Blatant Lies and Weasel Words. Features commonly in sloppy rhetoric and propaganda pieces. Unfortunately, this usually works with an ill-informed audience, as the speaker can usually expect that they will not check the source for the quotes. Frequently used as part of an ad hominem fallacious argument.

The act of quote mining is also referred to as 'quoting out of context' or 'contextomy'.

When this technique is practiced on audio to make a deceptive soundbite (as in confessional interviews on reality shows, or comments that are then used as voiceovers), it's called a "Frankenbite" — probably because in particularly bad cases, one can actually hear where two audio clips were spliced together. In some circumstances, this can be acceptable, provided the audience knows it's been edited and the meaning has been preserved.

 

[PGen98]

@WHO IS SERAFIN is a legend at pulling the quote mine, which is defined by TV Tropes as...

True, but also his ability to butcher the process of quoting someone here and responding within the quotes instead of closing the quotes off.

 

[Nebulous]

When @WHO IS SERAFIN gets back, this thread might go another 9 pages.

 

[PGen98]

When @WHO IS SERAFIN gets back, this thread might go another 9 pages.

Good, we need him to be the contrarian

 

[Webster]

True, but also his ability to butcher the process of quoting someone here and responding within the quotes instead of closing the quotes off.

Like I said, he's quite the quote miner...

 

[Vaeve]

I remember this thread

 

[PGen98]

Like I said, he's quite the quote miner...

He sure is!

 

[Nebulous]

I remember this thread

 

[Webster]

Good, we need him to be the contrarian

Serafin is the Spinal Tap of contrarians....