Opinion of Obama

[Corleone]

*This has nothing to do with Bush





Obama said you will get to keep your doctor, which is not true. You is plural, meaning each individual citizen. Unless each and every citizen will have the option to keep their own doctor, Obama lied. Calling me out and saying I'm a liar is a lie itself. I watched the video, you watched the video, Obama lied.



Obama's promise:

You can keep your own doctor



If one person can not keep their doctor, it's a lie. End of discussion. He lied. He admitted to it. Obama admitted to lying, I'm still baffled how you can say he didn't lie when he said he lied.

 

[Temerit]

Because he didn't lie. He was informing people about the plan that he was proposing and said that under that plan you would be able to keep your own doctor. His plan was not the one that passed. I'm baffled you can't tell the difference between him speaking about his outline for healthcare reform that he was proposing and the final bill that passed.



He was not saying that no matter what after everything is said and done you will be able to keep your doctor. He was talking about the healthcare plan that he was proposing and under that plan everyone could keep their own doctor, so he wasn't lying.

 

[Corleone]

Obama promoted that bill until the very end, and even went on to say he supports congress for passing it. When the bill arrived at his desk, I highly doubt he read it, because if he did, he would of spotted that flaw in the bill, and addressed the American people, before signing it into law. However, if he did read the bill and passed it, knowing it would limit a select few from keeping their own doctor, then he broke his own promise knowingly. He could of very easily vetoed it, then exposed the flaw to congress, to ensure it doesn't pass again. He rushed the bill, made promises he couldn't keep, and I for one will hold him accountable for promising something he, or anyone, couldn't possibly keep without additional support. This is not a one man team, as you previously said, so why is one person speaking for everyone, assuming they all agree. His promise was an assumption, because he didn't keep it. He passed the bill that will not let you (plural) keep your own doctor, and that's what concerns me. Sure, call it a compromise, not his bill, not a one man team, not his fault, but in the end, he passed the bill himself, singing it into the law, when he knew it went against one of the biggest promises he made to the American people. No excuses. I'm tired of his lies and excuses, and I won't let him off the hook, because no one forced him to sign the bill, or to compromise one of his, if not, biggest promises to the American people about the healthcare reform.

 

[Temerit]

Obama promoted that bill until the very end, and even went on to say he supports congress for passing it.

Well duh, it was a decent bill that got through a decent amount of the stuff he had been fighting for.

he would of spotted that flaw in the bill, and addressed the American people, before signing it into law.

No, because its not a big deal and people don't give a shit.

However, if he did read the bill and passed it, knowing it would limit a select few from keeping their own doctor, then he broke his own promise knowingly.

He did not say that. He was talking about that a few people might have to switch insurance plans because of some last minute provisions. What in the healthcare bill prevent you from keeping your own doctor? Hm?

He could of very easily vetoed it

But he has no reason to. No motive whatsoever.

then exposed the flaw to congress, to ensure it doesn't pass again.

Why would he do that when passage of health care reform was so precarious and yet so crucial to his political wherewithal? Again, no president does shit like that, you are holding him against an impossible standard and acting like our government is a utopia where Obama can get whatever the hell he wants.

He rushed the bill

RUSHED? It took almost a YEAR! You know how long that is for the legislative branch of government to have that as its top priority? Healthcare was anything but rushed.

His promise was an assumption, because he didn't keep it.

It wasn't a fucking promise, it was a factual statement about his proposal.

and I for one will hold him accountable

Alright go ahead, keep of blabbing your lies and idiotic conclusions.

He passed the bill that will not let you (plural) keep your own doctor, and that's what concerns me.

LIE.

one of the biggest promises he made to the American people

Ok first of all, I have thoroughly debunked your claim that this was a promise, and second of all this was not one of his biggest promises not even the biggest one concerning health care..

No excuses. I'm tired of his lies and excuses, and I won't let him off the hook

Unless Fox News told you to.

 

[Corleone]

Very immature post, have to pass on a proper response, as it was belligerent and non-constructive.

 

[Temerit]

Nice excuse, the real reason you have chosen not to respond is because at some point during this discourse you have realized that you are falsely accusing a man in order to make him look bad on a personal level just because you disagree with him on an idealogical basis.



Thanks for calling me immature though, but it does become frustrating to have to debate someone when they ignore your points and continue throwing debunked logical fallacies at you. For example debating a creationist.

 

[Corleone]

Nope, it's just that you don't know how to debate. This is the second time you've went overboard, because for one, you don't need to be swearing to prove your point, and two, you don't need to tell me how to live my life. If I want to watch Fox News, I will, and there's nothing you can do about it. This has nothing to do with the debate, and if you knew how to debate, you would know that a debate should be about the debate subject. Leave it at that. If you want to continue debating Obama, please do so, but I won't bother to respond to useless, belligerent posts. Some of your points are valid, but there's no need to get hostile and rude, because it only proves you're not capable of debating in a civil manner.

 

[Jazzy]

This debate is getting out of hand. Please be respectful of each other. Any further personal attacks and this thread will be closed.

 

[Temerit]

because for one, you don't need to be swearing to prove your point

No I don't it is merely the product of frustration. Plus its just another spice in my stew

If I want to watch Fox News, I will, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Yes that is true, but the thing is once someone watches Fox News, then we no longer have the same set of facts to debate over. Fox propagates and misinforms its viewers in a way that gives them a false version of reality and yet convinces them that they are informed knowledgeable members of the American public.

you would know that a debate should be about the debate subject.

I'd like to note that for the vast majority I have stuck to the debate topic, my tangents have merely been noting the reasons for our dis alignment in our interpretation of Obama's words (Fox News). You on the other hand have yet to refute anything substantial that I have said aside from scolding me for bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic.



When I mentioned George Bush, I was just providing an example. You are holding a politician to an impossible standard and them doom him incorrectly by taking something he said about his proposal and then applying it as a promise. He never said that was going to be the case in the final bill, he was merely talking about his proposal.

Some of your points are valid

And none of them have been refuted.

but there's no need to get hostile and rude, because it only proves you're not capable of debating in a civil manner.

It seems you value manners over keeping the debate concerned about reality. I'm sorry for my lapses in how I carried myself, but you must understand my frustration in the fact that you never address what I have said and continue to say the same false things that you have said from the start.



---



Sorry Jazzy, I'll keep this positive enough to avoid censorship.

 

[Temerit]

How many promises Obama said before he was president that he kept when he became president? None...

The 120 promises that he has already kept disagree with your lies.



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

 

[DrLeftover]

this page is fascinating as well....



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/

 

[Temerit]

Again, Dr. Leftover is only concerned with failure

Hey, check out this much more extensive page!!:



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-kept/



And even on some of the ones where they are considered broken:



During the 2008 presidential campaign, Barack Obama promised to double the size of the Peace Corps to 16,000 by its 50th anniversary in 2011. But while the president's proposed fiscal year 2011 budget would increase the amount of money devoted to the Peace Corps, the amount envisioned is too low to reach Obama's original goal by 2011.



He still raised funding for the Peace Corp albeit not being able to reach his initial goal immediately. Any of these are still subject to change considering he's only been President for a year and a half and his ability to enact everything he promised is greatly limited by the economic conditions we have.

 

[Temerit]

Temerit, you are defending Mr. Obama with a bunch of excuses, enough already...

Excuses? You guys are unfairly accusing him of consciously doing something that he didn't do.

With the Healthcare Bill, It's just a big bunch of mistrust and broken promises that have been made to the Americans...

What promises are broken? Please tell me which claims he made that congress ruined in the bill and point me to the parts of the bill where those promises were undone.

What about Mr. Obama saying that he would get the U.S. Military out of a curtain war with-in a time frame before he got elected, that was another promise he gave that he didn't keep...

We will be out of Iraq for the most part by the end of this year. He is re-focusing on the war that was the only one that should have been waged. Except this time he is doing it how it should have been done, Bush never had any intention of getting out of Afghanistan. He and those in his administration wanted a never ending war.

Obama is just a bunch of lies and broken promises, and telling us that other presidents have done the same thing

I'm telling you that its not a promise! He was talking about his proposal, he never said anything like In the final bill, I guarantee that you will get to keep your doctor and your insurance plan no matter what I'd also like you to find out how many people will lose their doctor/insurance plan.

The issue you have with Fox News is also irrelevant to what Mr. Obama had promised, It's just that Fox News isn't afraid to point them out unlike the other news companies that are mostly in the Democratic sidelines...

The issue I have with Fox News? Its the issue that any rational educated person has with Fox News. The fact that Fox has no interest in reporting the facts, will never ever be happy with anything Obama does, portrays everything in a way that glorifies the Republican party...



Here is a recent video of Fox distorting the facts concerning the Bush Tax Cuts:



http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberalViewer#p/p



Here are 100 videos evidencing Fox News Bias:



http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D&playnext=1&v=1SiVasR2Gzo



Here is a John Stewart video where he completely debunk's Megan Kelly's America Live as a legitimate fair and balanced news program.



http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-3-2010/anchor-management



And This Documentary Which Attacks Fox News first and foremost because its a pathetic excuse of news and is actually just indoctrinating people filling them with false facts and painting a picture of a false reality. However it also makes a case against having four main sources of news period, because consolidation of the media is a very scary thing.



http://www.outfoxed.org/



I also wrote a nice blog post concerning the issue of mass media as a whole, not just Fox Directly, but that article I wrote does have some eye opening poll numbers that show, the more someone watches Fox, the less facts they know and the more false things they believe.



http://progressiveyouth.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/the-new-mass-media/#comments

The Healthcare bill itself is unconstitutional and shouldn't have been passed in the first place... Making Americans buy something that they don't want... It's like me saying that you MUST have a cell phone, if not you MUST pay a fine...

No, its not really like that at all and to assume it as such is asinine. If someone breaks their cell phone, we don't have to pay for a new one. If someone breaks and arm, isn't insured and goes to the emergency room, we do have to pay for it. A healthcare mandate is not the best way to do it, having a government run health insurance program, along with private and non-profit insurers is the best route. But since Republicans blocked the public option despite the overwhelming public support for it, they had to go to the mandate to insure universal coverage, and they also added many provisions that lessen the cost and make it easier for those 30 million uninsured to get affordable health insurance.



Now I don't think the healthcare bill turned out that great. Obama's initial proposal, with the public option would have been the best thing for America. But he got what he could, given the political climate and his inexperience as President. But he also knew that healthcare reform was overdue for nearly a century. To him, simply failing again (like Hillary did in the 90s) wasn't an option.



It didn't help that the Republicans acted solely as an obstructionist party, putting politics as more important than doing what is right for the American people. They pledged to vote against the bill, and they never offered alternative solutions to solving the unsustainable rise in health insurance costs.. (aside from tort reform which would curb the rise in costs by about 0.5%)



I'm tired of the blind hate against Obama and the ridiculous reality that is playing out in 2010. It boggles my mind that people would vote for Republicans who have done nothing but obstruct the political process, whom haven't offered up any solutions to the problems of today... I don't get it.

 

[DrLeftover]

... I don't get it.

You wouldn't.

 

[Temerit]

Can to enlighten me, allow me to see the true brilliance of conservatives?

 

[Temerit]

What about Progressives that LOVE to change for the worst? To take rights away from Americans?

What are you talking about? That's what conservatives stand for. They say they want their rights, but then they willingly surrender them all to fight terrorism.

To make Americans do something that they don't want to do?

If someone is interested in living, then they want health insurance or they want to be a leech on the system. I thought conservatives were usually against this leech on the system idea..

Ask me this, do you like to be told what to do?

No, but under the social contract that the United States government is under, I believe they should be able to tell me that I cannot murder, rape, steal, or run a multi billion dollar Pansie scheme.

 

[DrLeftover]

Can to enlighten me, allow me to see the true brilliance of conservatives?

I don't recall saying that Conservatives have any special brilliance. Perhaps you can show me where I did.



However, I don't see surrendering what remains of my personal Rights under the Constitution or my state's Rights under the Tenth Amendment of the Bill of Rights to the National Government, or even US Sovereignty over its own citizens to the UN or some other multinational organization as the answer.



And before you run off half cocked, George W Bush was also all about the UN and SPP long before Mr. Obama even began his campaign.



And if you are unfamiliar with the Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America between the US, Canada and Mexico... I have included the link below for you to go read up on it at your convenience.



http://www.spp.gov/

 

[Temerit]

You just ignored my entire post and now have started talking about something completely unrelated.



I'm pretty sure that people listening in on your phones is much more threatening than insuring that all Americans can get the health care they need.

 

[DrLeftover]

amen

 

[Temerit]

There's no point in debating you, because you don't understand what people say or the facts...

Interesting. What facts have I misunderstood? Based on your response here, it seems you haven't understood very well what I've been saying.

Saying that Mr. Obama didn't promise anything before he became president, he was just offering us things, no

I have not said that, I have only refuted the examples Joshua gave me which were things he was saying after elected concerning his healthcare reform proposal.

You say he didn't break any promises, that he was just compromising, no, it's a promise that he didn't keep, point, plain, period...

I never said that, in fact the link I posted lists several examples of where he broke his promises.

It's hard to debate to a brick wall... Sorry...

Joshua and yourself are more of brick walls than I. But I have been giving no reason to have a negative opinion on Obama, other than him breaking far less promises than any other politician I know.

And on another note, I was merely replying to what someone has said, why do you think your so special that I have to reply to what you say only and not what any one else says?

If you want to start afresh, I ask you this, why do you have a negative opinion of Obama?

Where did I say that you should only reply to me and no one else?