Should all crimes be equally punishable?

[Nebulous]

Should all crimes be equally punishable, or should circumstances decide the punishment?

 

[Black Angel]

Circumstances should dictate the punishment, depending on the crime.

For example, Lorena Bobbitt (showing my age here) should not have gone to jail for castrating her husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, who raped her.

And she should have gotten all of the money from the porn he made and royalties after it was reattached. (I am not kidding here.. I believe it was called "Frankenpenis" and this should be working example of the privileges dudes like him have.. last I read about him, which was years ago, he was still trying to contact her, despite her wanting nothing to do with him.)

She could have used that money to buy a professional meat grinder so that she could learn how to make sausage or anything involving minced meat.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Not sure... the thing is, while it's good for ppl with mental health issues to be treated in a mental health hospital (therefore detained in one), even in those rated good many are abused... increasing the likelihood of re-offending. It's not fair that ppl with mental issues are treated worse than ppl without, essentially. Ideally ppl should be adapted to and rehabilitated as an individual

 

[biglin]

Well, it depends. There's no 'one size fits all' answer to that question.

For instance, murder You can't treat every murder on the same footing.

But in general I think adults and juveniles need to be treated differently and equally circumstances do come into it but not as an excuse (which is too often the case.)

As for Lorena Bobbitt I respectfully disagree.

There are other ways of dealing with that sort of situation (and I speak as someone who has been raped so I know what I'm talking about.)

But my attitude to crime and punishment is complex and doesn't fit into a cosy left/right divide.

I support the death penalty for murder (except in very exceptional circumstances or for juveniles) but I support prison reform, alternatives to prison, legalising drugs and so on.

On most issues I can't be put into a tidy left/right box to be honest.

 

[Reddington]

Circumstances should dictate the punishment, depending on the crime.

For example, Lorena Bobbitt (showing my age here) should not have gone to jail for castrating her husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, who raped her.

And she should have gotten all of the money from the porn he made and royalties after it was reattached. (I am not kidding here.. I believe it was called "Frankenpenis" and this should be working example of the privileges dudes like him have.. last I read about him, which was years ago, he was still trying to contact her, despite her wanting nothing to do with him.)

She could have used that money to buy a professional meat grinder so that she could learn how to make sausage or anything involving minced meat.

I don't want to turn this thread into a separate debate about one incident, however, she did not castrate him during the act, which would have been self defense. She castrated him while he was sleeping, which makes her the aggressor. It is the same concept as a home invader who is running off the property being chased and shot by the homeowner. There wasn't a threat in that moment. We cannot let victims off scott free for doing things after the crime has stopped, that sets a horrible precedent.

 

[Black Angel]

Yes, he was asleep, but that was the only way she could make her move.. I'm not saying that it is right, but that is common in domestic violence and even child abuse cases.

There was a kid who killed her trafficker the same way.. she did 5 years I think before her case got national attention and she was later released.

And another involving a kid who shot and killed her father in his sleep for beating her mother and it was said that he was also molesting her (the child) as well.

And the courts were sympathetic in cases like this.

In these situations that is often their only way of escaping danger.. and you literally only get one chance to make your move.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Yes, he was asleep, but that was the only way she could make her move.. I'm not saying that it is right, but that is common in domestic violence and even child abuse cases.

There was a kid who killed her trafficker the same way.. she did 5 years I think before her case got national attention and she was later released.

And another involving a kid who shot and killed her father in his sleep for beating her mother and it was said that he was also molesting her (the child) as well.

And the courts were sympathetic in cases like this.

In these situations that is often their only way of escaping danger.. and you literally only get one chance to make your move.

I get you, it’s difficult to define self-defence in ongoing situations like domestic violence, isn’t it?

@Black Angel could you post a link to the article please if you don’t mind?

 

[Black Angel]

Here are a few links to the cases I was referring to for personal reasons (and the sake of my mental health) I am not going to get too deep into the subject of both DV and SA.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/teen-chrystul-kizer-sex-trafficking-death-bond/index.html

^ Although this link refers to Chrystul Kizer's case, it also mentions Cyntoia Brown's case as well. Brown ended up serving 15 years (not 5, my mistake) before her case got national attention and she was released. This was one of the few cases that Kim Kardashian helped raise awareness about.

Bresha Meadows, teen who killed father, gets deal that spares jail time

Ohio teen Bresha Meadows, accused of killing her abusive dad, will move from jail to a counseling center.

www.nbcnews.com

And although I didn't mention this one, this case is along the lines of the others, but the victim had to pay her rapists family $150k for killing their rapist relative. I am not sure if it was appealed, but this one got my blood pressure up when I first heard about it and this is a major reason why I am stopping here.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/us/pieper-lewis-sex-trafficking-other-cases-reaj/index.html

That being said, while these are only a few examples, there are many, many more and it is DV that is usually the common link with gun violence, which is precisely why certain parties capitulate to the ammosexuals out there. Most if not, all of the mass shootings have had a common link with domestic violence as well, (for example, the Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother before going to the school to kill 21 children and teachers, and IIRC the Vegas shooter killed his girlfriend before killing 49 people at a festival) which is probably why this same party barred the CDC from researching gun violence as it pertains to domestic violence.

I know that I have only posted a few examples but I am stopping here for the sake of my mental health. I apologize for not posting more..

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Here are a few links to the cases I was referring to for personal reasons (and the sake of my mental health) I am not going to get too deep into the subject of both DV and SA.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/teen-chrystul-kizer-sex-trafficking-death-bond/index.html

^ Although this link refers to Chrystul Kizer's case, it also mentions Cyntoia Brown's case as well. Brown ended up serving 15 years (not 5, my mistake) before her case got national attention and she was released. This was one of the few cases that Kim Kardashian helped raise awareness about.

Bresha Meadows, teen who killed father, gets deal that spares jail time

Ohio teen Bresha Meadows, accused of killing her abusive dad, will move from jail to a counseling center.

www.nbcnews.com

And although I didn't mention this one, this case is along the lines of the others, but the victim had to pay her rapists family $150k for killing their rapist relative. I am not sure if it was appealed, but this one got my blood pressure up when I first heard about it and this is a major reason why I am stopping here.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/us/pieper-lewis-sex-trafficking-other-cases-reaj/index.html

That being said, while these are only a few examples, there are many, many more and it is DV that is usually the common link with gun violence, which is precisely why certain parties capitulate to the ammosexuals out there. Most if not, all of the mass shootings have had a common link with domestic violence as well, (for example, the Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother before going to the school to kill 21 children and teachers, and IIRC the Vegas shooter killed his girlfriend before killing 49 people at a festival) which is probably why this same party barred the CDC from researching gun violence as it pertains to domestic violence.

I know that I have only posted a few examples but I am stopping here for the sake of my mental health. I apologize for not posting more..

Thanks for sharing

Was Sandy Hook abused by his mother?
And was the Vegas shooter abused by his gf?
Or are you just assuning/speculating?

I’m sorry to hear about your mental health I wish you all the best

 

[Black Angel]

No. I am saying that the Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother before he took her gun and went on a rampage.

And the Las Vegas shooter killed his girlfriend before he killed 49 people. My mistake, I believe she was the one who tipped off the cops but she stated that he did abuse her.

I am saying that there is a link between gun violence and domestic violence.



I dont assume or speculate, I am just recalling the few cases that stuck out to me on this subject.

Edit: the npr link was a link to an article, but for some reason it became a media player..

Hopefully this is a better one..

The American gun crisis? It’s largely a domestic violence crisis | Moira Donegan

In spite of the increasing crisis of gun violence in intimate partner abuse situations, gun control is still not generally thought of as a gender justice issue

www.theguardian.com

 

[~ True Legend ~]

No. I am saying that the Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother before he took her gun and went on a rampage.

And the Las Vegas shooter killed his girlfriend before he killed 49 people. My mistake, I believe she was the one who tipped off the cops but she stated that he did abuse her.

I am saying that there is a link between gun violence and domestic violence.



I dont assume or speculate, I am just recalling the few cases that stuck out to me on this subject.

Edit: the npr link was a link to an article, but for some reason it became a media player..

Hopefully this is a better one..

The American gun crisis? It’s largely a domestic violence crisis | Moira Donegan

In spite of the increasing crisis of gun violence in intimate partner abuse situations, gun control is still not generally thought of as a gender justice issue

www.theguardian.com

Oh wait so Sandy Hook killed her mother so she could take her gun without resistance? I’m sorry but I don’t see the link between domestic violence and gun crime, unless you’re saying it was an ongoing thing and not something she only did just before the mass shooting.

I believe I may have misunderstood and that explains my confusion - apologies for that 🤗

I’m glad you raised the subject of domestic violence though. It happens a lot, and at least in the UK there’ve been numerous reports that it’s clearly not taken seriously by police as domestic violence is not prioritised. Also victims are reluctant to come forward, presumably for this reason along with fear from their abuser.

It’s particularly saddening when kids are victims of domestic violence that could have been prevented . There’ve been instances where abuse was reported to social services, only for a social worker to notice no problems whatsoever as the parents do have a great job at putting up a facade of being the loving parents they are not.

I reckon it’s prioritisation of cases where the evidence clear-cut. The police only have so much time and resources. It’s just such a shame that so many valid domestic violence cases are dismissed!

 

[Black Angel]

I apologize.

Sandy Hook is a city and school district within Connecticut. Adam Lanza, 20, was the shooter, his mother was an alleged gun nut, and worked at the school. I am not sure if she was a teacher or not, but I assume that she would have tried to stop him from going through with it, which was likely why he killed her before he took her guns.

At the time, it was also alleged that his motive for doing so was because he was jealous over the attention she gave the kids, and how much she talked about how she cared for them.

And there is a link between gun violence and domestic violence as domestic abusers often use their guns to control their victims. Usually it is the domestic abuser that ends up killing his family with the same guns, but the reverse can also be true where the victims use the same gun to kill their abusers. This is true whether we are talking about children or their mothers.

There is a reason why there is a massive push in this country, at least, to keep guns out of the hands and households of domestic abusers. They wouldn't come up with this idea if there wasn't a link between the two. Hell, they have even resorted to killing their victims when they tried to leave. This is why it is said that the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim, is when she is about to leave.

According to Johns Hopkins, 70% of the deadliest mass shootings involve domestic violence.

Debunking Myths About Gun Violence | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

Dangerous myths distract from the real—and solvable—problems behind gun violence.

publichealth.jhu.edu

And according to this June 2021 article, 259 mass shootings since 2013, were preceded by domestic violence.

The Many Ways Domestic Violence Foreshadows Mass Shootings

How are intimate partner violence and mass murder intertwined, and what can be done to save lives?

www.thetrace.org

And here is another link saying the same, hut they say that the connection between the two doesn't receive the attention it should.

Domestic violence plays a role in many mass shootings, but receives less attention: Experts

But too often, domestic violence incidents don't receive the same media attention as other types of mass shootings.

abcnews.go.com

Again, these are just a few examples out of many, but the fact of the matter is that the two are linked, and this is why states here are trying to keep guns out of the hands of domestic abusers.

But the facts are what they are and you are free to believe them (or not.)

 

[~ True Legend ~]

I’ll have a read of your articles soon as I get a chance, likely this Sunday. Thanks for sharing these @Black Angel

Liam Smith: Murder-accused 'took vigilante route' over rape claim - BBC News

Michael Hillier denies murdering Liam Smith, who was shot and covered in acid, but admits manslaughter.

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally? While I understand going to court can be a lengthy and traumatic process, especially when facing your abuser, I’m not sure that excuses murder to the rapist. What are your thoughts?

 

[MrDawn]

Definitely circumstances. You can't judge every crime with a blanket treatment. For a correct assessment to be made, it needs to be looked over in court and decided fairly.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Definitely circumstances. You can't judge every crime with a blanket treatment. For a correct assessment to be made, it needs to be looked over in court and decided fairly.

Agreed.
Doesn’t seem like cases can be judged fairly when juries fall asleep, when juries have illnesses like tinnitus, etc

Sheffield sex assault trial collapses due to 'astonishing' jury problems

One juror fell asleep while another could not hear crucial evidence at Sheffield Crown Court.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ravenfreak]

Not all crimes are the same, some crimes are definitely more serious than others. So no, not all crimes should be equally punishable. For example someone who is a thief who steals from supermarkets because they're poor shouldn't be punishable the same way a murderer is.

 

[~ True Legend ~]

Not all crimes are the same, some crimes are definitely more serious than others. So no, not all crimes should be equally punishable. For example someone who is a thief who steals from supermarkets because they're poor shouldn't be punishable the same way a murderer is.

💯

Bodycam video shows Ohio police fatally shooting pregnant black woman

Ta'Kiya Young, 21, appears to advance the car towards an Ohio officer before a single shot is fired.

www.bbc.co.uk

I’m sorry but shoplifting does not warrant a shooting, especially of a pregnant woman

Given she was black I suspect this was racially motivated.

@Black Angel did you see this?

 

[Webster]

Should all crimes be equally punishable, or should circumstances decide the punishment?

No, because not all crimes are equal. Murder is not the same as simple assault, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Black Angel]

Bodycam video shows Ohio police fatally shooting pregnant black woman

Ta'Kiya Young, 21, appears to advance the car towards an Ohio officer before a single shot is fired.

www.bbc.co.uk

I’m sorry but shoplifting does not warrant a shooting, especially of a pregnant woman

Given she was black I suspect this was racially motivated.

@Black Angel did you see this?

Yes, I did and you are right, but because Black people are not considered human by White society, and the cops still act like the Slave Patrol from the 1870s, and White people know this, which is why they are quick to weaponize the police against us, which makes incidents like this all the more common.

Shoplifting, selling loose cigarettes, (Eric Garner) jogging, (Ahmad Arbery) asking for help after a car accident, (Renisha McBride) showing up at the wrong address, (Ralph Yarl, thank God he survived) walking home from 7-Eleven (Trayvon Martin) purchasing cigars (Michael Brown) eating ice cream in your own apartment (Botham Jean), playing video games with your nephew (Atatiana Jefferson), being asleep in your own bedroom as a 7 year old little girl, when the cops raid the wrong house (Aiyana Stanley), being a 14 year old boy playing with a toy gun in a park, and being told by the caller it was a toy, (yet he still called the cops anyway after knowing it was a toy) in Ohio, which is an open-carry state, (Tamir Rice), purchasing something in a bodega with a legal $20 bill (George Floyd, and this was confirmed with the store owner), walking down the stairs in your apartment building, because the elevator wasn't working and being shot dead by the police who were patrolling the WRONG building, (Akai Gurley) playing with a toy gun that you intended to purchase for your son in Walmart (John Crawford III), being on a cell phone and standing in your own yard, (Stephon Clark), running, because you have been abused by police before and were scared (Freddie Gray) (and so, so, so many others) doesn't require a death sentence, unless you are Black.

The melanin in our skin makes us bulletproof, or so it is thought.

This is why it takes a dozen cops emptying their clip into an unarmed Black person (Laquan McDonald) in order for them to feel safe, even though crime has been in decline for at least 2 decades and even still, it isn't as if Black people are human, which is why we are commonly referred to as "Blacks" in lieu of "Black People" so to them, another dead "Black" isn't a big deal to them.. that sympathy is typically reserved for White people and animals. When we are killed, it is meant with the same sympathy as someone killing a roach.. and for the greater White society, there is no difference.

Case in point, Dylann Roof, massacred 9 Black people in a historic Black church in Charleston, SC, and the fucked up thing was they welcomed him in to join the prayer service before he massacred them.

Do you know what the cops did, after tracking him for days (it was said that he had a list of targets) they took him to Burger King, before they arrested and collared him.

His motivation?

He hated Black people.

And the cops took him to Burger King, because they felt sorry for him. They felt bad for the poor kid who must've been hungry after being on the run for a few days. That was their justification for doing so.

I think of Maya Angelou's quote here.

"When people show you who they are believe them the first time."

White people in this country got extremely angry at Colin Kaepernick calling attention to these and other murders, but are almost always silent when we are killed, or worse, they move the goalposts to manufacture consent for that murder. Some have even called for Kaepernick to be hung because he had the nerve to speak out against these killings. They accused him of protesting the national anthem, which is in fact, a racist song, that glorified the deaths of Black people, be they the enslaved, or the Caribbean hirelings hired by the British, to fight against the U.S. so even if the third stanza, which referenced these people, was removed from the anthem itself, the racist spirit of the song is still there. But even still, his protest was about the extra-judicial killings of Black people.. and I think that the White people who criticized him, were uncomfortable with the fact that he forced them to recognize his humanity and of those that were killed, when he is supposed to be a source of entertainment for their consumption. This is why they often told him, and other athletes who felt the same way, to "shut up and play ball."

Regarding this recent shooting, I read a lot of comments from those saying stuff like:

"She was no angel, she was stealing, so she must've wanted an abortion, and she got it."

"And, nothing of value was lost, unmarried, 2 kids, 21, pregnant and shoplifting, she got what she deserved."

"Someone should've told her that drinking is a bad idea while pregnant."

"Oh Great, now her kids will be living off my taxes, why couldn't she keep her legs closed?"

Not once did one of these people think or say, "she probably thought she could make a quick buck by selling the alcohol, since she obviously didn't have the money to buy it."

Nope, they just demonized her, and kept up with their racist rhetoric.

But then again, these people will go on to make Halloween costumes after those who have been killed by the police and also reenact their murders as well. Not really all that surprising since these are the descendants of those who kidnapped, lynched, castrated and then ATE Nat Turner.

And yet, they call us "savages."

In this country, whether we run (Massachusetts SC actually ruled that Black people have a valid reason to flee the police, and ruled in favor of the defendant against the police) or comply, (like Philando Castille, et. al, did) if a cop decides that they want a paid vacation, and don't want to run, or do any real work, then we are as good as dead, because they will kill us, lie to the media about the situation for a long as possible (such as Breonna Taylor's murder) and the greater White population will sign off on it, because they consider themselves better than "those people."

As for me, I do hear of these stories quite often, but it isn't good for mine or any Black person's mental health to keep reading and seeing these stories often, because regardless of whether or not we are personally related to the person killed in these stories, it is still a shared trauma because these people were targeted for their skin color, and we know that it is only a matter of time before we, or someone we know end up in these stories too.

This will never change, until White people stand up and stand in solidarity with BIPOC on this issue, but because the police are the guardians of White Supremacy, and capital, and White people are its beneficiaries (whether they know it, or want to admit it or not) they will never speak up.

It might seem hyperbolic to compare what's happening now to Nazi Germany, but it isn't. From past til present day, they have gone after, Natives, Mexicans, Muslims, Sikhs (commonly mistaken for Muslims, especially and immediately after 9/11), Jews, Asians (regarding Covid) LGBT+ and now Black people (not that they have ever stopped) and pitted these groups against each other, and White people have benefitted from it all thus far.. and most have said nothing even if they agree that this is wrong. They say nothing because they truly think that they are better than the other targeted groups.. but unfortunately for them, the ones doing this targeting, don't like them either, and so eventually, if this doesn't stop before it is too late, then the non-wealthy White people out there, who make up the majority, will be the next targeted group.

As I have said many times before, it is the law, and has been upheld by SCOTUS that the police don't have to protect you, and they don't, so we as tax payers, are all LITERALLY paying the police to abuse and kill us, and the same thing that is happening to these marginalized groups now, will eventually happen to their biggest, and most racist White supporters, that is if they don't wake up before it is too late.

And given their propensity for being anti-woke, they are basically saying that they would rather be dead, than conscious.

Note: I am not saying that all White people are like this, but even though most White people aren't racist, and probably hate what is going on as much as we do, there still aren't enough of them speaking up, and standing in unison with the targeted groups. I have heard it said that if White people wanted to end racism, then would. It is only fair though, they were its inventors.. so the onus should be upon them to destroy it.

But I am not going to hold my breath on this.. this game has literally been in play for at least 4 centuries, the rules might've been slightly changed over time, but it is still the same game.

 

[Webster]

Case in point, Dylann Roof, massacred 9 Black people in a historic Black church in Charleston, SC, and the fucked up thing was they welcomed him in to join the prayer service before he massacred them.

Even worse, when the cops finally caught Roof, they gave him Burger King to eat before turning him over to the cops in South Carolina...