UN: LGBTQ Equality In America "Not Within Reach"

[Webster]

Uh, yeah, no.

Someone really needs to remind her that sex and gender are not the same damn thing.

 

[PGen98]

It seems a confused society with some brain washing is confusing gender with and personality. Actually that is what’s happening.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Keep telling yourself that.

I will

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Uh, yeah, no.

Someone really needs to remind her that sex and gender are not the same damn thing.

They are no matter how much people want to try to fake science

 

[Webster]

They are no matter how much people want to try to fake science

We've done this dance before.....

What is gender? What is sex? - CIHR

...

cihr-irsc.gc.ca

'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:
--Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

--Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

 

[Scarlet Rose]

We have sex, it’s a fake word to make up fake biology.

This does nothing to establish that gender is an invalid term. Our point of contention is whether or not sex and gender are different. Therefore the existence of the word sex does nothing to refute the term gender. Sex refers to the biological and gender refers to the sociocultural. The biological and the sociocultural are not the same. During my initial responses to you, I was asking you to explain the relationship between the biological and sociocultural. You opted to never directly answer this line of questioning. The next issue here is that all words are made up. This observation does not on its own invalidate a term. This is simply a feature of language. New words are made and existing words can have their meanings change.

So, doesn’t make real or needed. Academic elites have made themselves a hysterical joke.

No, but its widespread use does illustrate that it has value for those who are choosing to utilize it. It also highlights that it is able to be used in both popular and academic contexts.

It’s a recent fake term so no.

Simply because you do not agree with the term does not contradict the fact it has been used numerous times in cross cultural and historical analysis.

I’m sure they do but past societies didn’t

What point are you trying to make with this assertion? They also didn't speak English in many of them. Would you argue, then, that any attempt to explain or understand a society must be strictly limited to whatever language/s and term/s they used?

That insanity is quite clear.

Your judgment aside, it is therefore a term which holds use for people across the political and theoretical spectrum. Even for advocates of theories or politics which are very much at odds with each other.

I’ve gotten that clear 47 posts ago, and it’s nonsense.

It isn't nonsense. People have been able to change their biology when it comes to phenotypes for thousands of years now. As far as I know most cultures, if not all, practice this to some degree.

We’re not talking about birth defects but the twist plot is a good one to makeup fake biology.

Are you claiming that birth defects are not biological? You did after all state that we can't change our biology. So if birth defects are biological then according to you, they are impossible to change.

And you are wrong on every level.

Simply making the assertion does not make it so. You have yet to demonstrate why or how I am wrong. I have been providing examples and thus far you have not engaged with them.

Trying to change society with fake science everyone is aware.

Are you claiming that there is no relationship between the sociocultural and the biological?

Which still makes it impossible to change your biology.

How exactly do these examples make that claim?

I’m not, but trying to confuse a public on faking biology is what it is.

As you have yet to demonstrate this claim of yours, I am going to stick with the notion that you are wrong.

Wrong. Can’t change our biology. But you let me know when a guy shoots out a baby from his ass.

I am still waiting for you to substantiate the claim that we can't change our biology. You keep repeating it, but I have shown several examples of areas where we can change our biology and you have yet to refute them.

We’re gaining a lot of something that’s for sure.

Knowledge about the relationship between the sociocultural and biological. I am not sure what else my words can mean. I literally stated what I was intending to convey.

It’s pretty simple when it comes to male and female. It couldn’t get any simpler.

It actually isn't. A lot of elements of our discussion about human biology can have implications for sex as well. As while the sociocultural and the biological are different, they do have influence over each other. For instance in some cultures women being fat was considered beautiful and in others women having long necks was a sign of beauty. Depending on the sociocultural context women would behave in ways to try and change their phenotype to match beauty standards.

Which is not three sexes it a birth defect.

I was talking about gender not sex. What you are referring to here is biological, my claim concerned the sociocultural.

Never happened, hence the push for a made up word.

It has happened and we have accounts of it happening.

It just makes it fake anthropology.

You calling it fake anthropology does not make it so. You would need to substantiate such a claim.

I think I might start a drinking game every time you write like I already said and try to convince me a guy can become a woman 😂

If you are talking about sex, then so far you would have had zero drinks since I have been talking about the sociocultural.

Nope, made up term from the 90s

As it stands that critique is both incorrect and irrelevant. Phenomena exist irrespective of whether there is a term to define it. The issue is whether or not the concept itself can adequately serve its function of defining. Something you have yet to establish that gender can't do. So then I stand by my assertion that different cultures conceive of, and understand gender differently.

Neither happened but we got plenty of mentally ill people pretending to be black today world when they are white but it’s still fake.

It has happened, as the way they conceived ethnicity was tied more to their understandings of social mobility. Increasing wealth was, therefore, an avenue through which one could change their ethnicity.

The sickness is happening now yes.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

 

[Webster]

*reads Scarlet's post above*

 

[Webster]

They are no matter how much people want to try to fake science

You were saying, sir?

12.1: Sex and Gender According to Anthropologists

Anthropologists are fond of pointing out that much of what we take for granted as “natural” in our lives is actually cultural—it is not grounded in the natural world or in biology …

socialsci.libretexts.org

Anthropologists are fond of pointing out that much of what we take for granted as “natural” in our lives is actually cultural—it is not grounded in the natural world or in biology but invented by humans. Because culture is invented, it takes different forms in different places and changes over time in those places. Living in the twenty-first century, we have witnessed how rapidly and dramatically culture can change, from ways of communicating to the emergence of same-sex marriage. Similarly, many of us live in culturally diverse settings and experience how varied human cultural inventions can be.

We readily accept that clothing, language, and music are cultural—invented, created, and alterable—but often find it difficult to accept that gender and sexuality are not natural but deeply embedded in and shaped by culture. We struggle with the idea that the division of humans into two and only two categories, “male” and “female,” is not universal, that “male” and “female” are cultural concepts that take different forms and have different meanings cross-culturally. Similarly, human sexuality, rather than being simply natural is one of the most culturally significant, shaped, regulated, and symbolic of all human capacities. The concept of humans as either “heterosexual” or “homosexual” is a culturally and historically specific invention that is increasingly being challenged in the United States and elsewhere.

Part of the problem is that gender has a biological component, unlike other types of cultural inventions such as a sewing machine, cell phone, or poem. We do have bodies and there are some male-female differences, including in reproductive capacities and roles, albeit far fewer than we have been taught. Similarly, sexuality, sexual desires and responses, are partially rooted in human natural capacities. However, in many ways, sexuality and gender are like food. We have a biologically rooted need to eat to survive and we have the capacity to enjoy eating. What constitutes “food,” what is “delicious” or “repulsive,” the contexts and meanings that surround food and human eating—those are cultural. Many potentially edible items are not “food” (rats, bumblebees, and cats in the United States, for example), and the concept of “food” itself is embedded in elaborate conventions about eating: how, when, with whom, where, “utensils,” for what purposes? A “romantic dinner” at a “gourmet restaurant” is a complex cultural invention.

In short, gender and sexuality, like eating, have biological components. But cultures, over time, have erected complex and elaborate edifices around them, creating systems of meaning that often barely resemble what is natural and innate. We experience gender and sexuality largely through the prism of the culture or cultures to which we have been exposed and in which we have been raised.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

This does nothing to establish that gender is an invalid term. Our point of contention is whether or not sex and gender are different. Therefore the existence of the word sex does nothing to refute the term gender. Sex refers to the biological and gender refers to the sociocultural. The biological and the sociocultural are not the same. During my initial responses to you, I was asking you to explain the relationship between the biological and sociocultural. You opted to never directly answer this line of questioning. The next issue here is that all words are made up. This observation does not on its own invalidate a term. This is simply a feature of language. New words are made and existing words can have their meanings change.

And yet it is a made up word for the insanity we are seeing today so you can feel a certain way and say you are something you aren’t.

No, but its widespread use does illustrate that it has value for those who are choosing to utilize it. It also highlights that it is able to be used in both popular and academic contexts.

Don’t remember what this discussion was about.

Simply because you do not agree with the term does not contradict the fact it has been used numerous times in cross cultural and historical analysis.

Don’t have to it’s a recent made up term to fake being something and it hasn’t.

What point are you trying to make with this assertion?

Don’t know I don’t see a reference in here so I don’t remember

They also didn't speak English in many of them. Would you argue, then, that any attempt to explain or understand a society must be strictly limited to whatever language/s and term/s they used?

Don’t have to speak English to live in a factual reality.

Your judgment aside,

The fact.

it is therefore a term which holds use for people across the political and theoretical spectrum.

Yes we are seeing plenty of made up sexes which the crazy left is using for political power.

Even for advocates of theories or politics which are very much at odds with each other.

No we’re seeing people threatened with their very livelihoods to comply with fake science for this agenda. Who cares what it does to children and society going into the gutter.

It isn't nonsense.

Don’t remember what this refers to but I’m sure it is as this point.

People have been able to change their biology

Never, notta, nope and utter bullshit in epic proportions!

when it comes to phenotypes for thousands of years now. As far as I know most cultures, if not all, practice this to some degree.

Can’t change your biology and no fake word, feeling or I said so can change that.

Are you claiming that birth defects are not biological?

Birth defects are birth defects a mistake! not what nature intended for a species to survive. Now if that certain birth defect becomes the norm and not the rarity and the species survives that mutation then we have witnessed a true evolution for human beings. But it ain’t the case and it won’t be.

You did after all state that we can't change our biology.

No I didn’t, I’ll state we evolve but we are seeing isn’t evolution.

So if birth defects are biological then according to you, they are impossible to change.

Birth defects are something nature usually disposes of pretty quickly.

Simply making the assertion does not make it so.

No assertion, it just is.

You have yet to demonstrate why or how I am wrong. I have been providing examples and thus far you have not engaged with them.

But yet I have.

Are you claiming that there is no relationship between the sociocultural and the biological?

Im claiming from the very beginning no matter how much you try to rewrite the words for your agenda we have two sexes. We have two sexes no matter what you choose to call it. We have to sexes and you can’t change it with a new name.

How exactly do these examples make that claim?

No context here, I can’t remember every aspect of the conversation about the facts we have only two sexes if it’s called gender or sex.

As you have yet to demonstrate this claim of yours, I am going to stick with the notion that you are wrong.

Have at it.

I am still waiting for you to substantiate the claim that we can't change our biology.

Please let me know when men just transform into actual baby delivering men. The conversation is definitely going into stupid.

You keep repeating it, but I have shown several examples of areas where we can change our biology and you have yet to refute them.

You haven’t shown squat 😂 But I’ll love the video, maybe something cool like the hulk transforming .

Knowledge about the relationship between the sociocultural and biological. I am not sure what else my words can mean. I literally stated what I was intending to convey.

Yeah, I’ve lost this part of the conversation without context many posts ago.

It actually isn't.

Again ???

A lot of elements of our discussion about human biology can have implications for sex as well.

Yeah, real guy has sex with real woman and out comes one of two sexes.

As while the sociocultural and the biological are different, they do have influence over each other. For instance in some cultures women being fat was considered beautiful and in others women having long necks was a sign of beauty.

And yet they all only had two sexes or the cool new term gender, two sexes.

Depending on the sociocultural context women would behave in ways to try and change their phenotype to match beauty standards.

I was talking about gender not sex.

The same

What you are referring to here is biological, my claim concerned the sociocultural.

No difference

It has happened and we have accounts of it happening.

You calling it fake anthropology does not make it so. You would need to substantiate such a claim.

But yet it is fake if I claim it or not.

If you are talking about sex,

I’m talking what is.

then so far you would have had zero drinks since I have been talking about the sociocultural.

As it stands that critique is both incorrect and irrelevant. Phenomena exist irrespective of whether there is a term to define it. The issue is whether or not the concept itself can adequately serve its function of defining. Something you have yet to establish that gender can't do. So then I stand by my assertion that different cultures conceive of, and understand gender differently.

I’m talking about two sexes no matter what you want to call it.

It has happened, as the way they conceived ethnicity was tied more to their understandings of social mobility. Increasing wealth was, therefore, an avenue through which one could change their ethnicity.

But yet you can’t change your ethnicity, you can be adopted into another culture and excepted but you can’t change your ethnicity no more than you can change your sex/gender.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

?????

 

[Webster]

And yet it is a made up word for the insanity we are seeing today so you can feel a certain way and say you are something you aren’t.

Don’t have to it’s a recent made up term to fake being something and it hasn’t.

So thousands of years of cultural and sociological evidence you don't agree with is all "bullshit"?

That's nice...and the ones out-to-lunch?

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Our entire ridiculous conversation in under 5 minutes how stupid this idea of gender is.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

So thousands of years of cultural and sociological evidence you don't agree with is all "bullshit"?

That's nice...and the ones out-to-lunch?

There is no thousands of years of society going through this insanity

 

[Webster]

Ben Shapiro is a yarmulke-wearing jackass; he can take his "facts don't care for feelings" schtick and shove it....

 

[Nebulous]

This thread is still going?

 

[PGen98]

This thread is still going?

Welcome to the daily struggle

 

[Scarlet Rose]

Don’t remember what this discussion was about.

That's fair enough. At this point it is almost like we have a dozen or so different conversations going within the same thread. Not to mention your ongoing replies to other members. For this reply I will reduce it to four major points of contention that I have. The first point is that you have not yet established that gender is an invalid concept. You have simply repeated the claim that it is, or pointed to redundant facts which do not invalidate it as a concept.

Never, notta, nope and utter bullshit in epic proportions!

On this point we were arguing about biology in a generalized sense and whether or not it is possible to change any aspects of human biology. I have been arguing that on the phenotype level there are numerous ways people have been changing their biology for thousands of years. Since modifications to biology on a phenotype level do not require any changes to it on a genotype level. Things like beauty standards are modifying the phenotype. I have also identified that negative aspects of our biology can be mitigated through interventions. We are not directly modifying the genotype but again altering the expression of it. Things like glasses, special diets and medication are applicable here. I have also argued that increasing awareness of the relationship between the sociocultural and biological has brought attention to how the two constitute each other. The way our biological development plays out is influenced very strongly by the sociocultural environment.

Im claiming from the very beginning no matter how much you try to rewrite the words for your agenda we have two sexes. We have two sexes no matter what you choose to call it. We have to sexes and you can’t change it with a new name.

You have continued to misconstrue gender as referring to biology despite it being pointed out to you numerous times that gender refers to the sociocultural. You are the only one here who is trying to call sex gender. You are then complaining that anything said about gender isn't correct about sex. The sociocultural and biological are not the same. While gender and sex relate to each other they don't exist in a one to one relationship. Even your sources have asserted that for 10% of people their temperament does not align with their sex. Both videos you shared of Peterson made that claim.

But yet you can’t change your ethnicity, you can be adopted into another culture and excepted but you can’t change your ethnicity no more than you can change your sex/gender.

Ethnicity is also sociocultural and has been interpreted in different ways based on sociocultural and historical context. Like gender, it was quite often experienced and interpreted differently prior to colonization. The specific example of ethnicity I gave pertained to Rwanda and the respective ethnicities Hutu and Tutsi. Following colonization the ways they experience their ethnicity is more in line with EuroAmerican thinking now. But prior to that it was possible for someone who was Hutu to acquire enough wealth, in the form of cows, to become Tutsi. Gender likewise had examples where in sociocultural and historical contexts it was possible to change your gender. Since it is sociocultural the transition simply requires that one see themselves as having a different identity and this being recognized and acknowledged by the other members of their society.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

That's fair enough. At this point it is almost like we have a dozen or so different conversations going within the same thread. Not to mention your ongoing replies to other members. For this reply I will reduce it to four major points of contention that I have. The first point is that you have not yet established that gender is an invalid concept. You have simply repeated the claim that it is, or pointed to redundant facts which do not invalidate it as a concept.

The fact it’s a made up term and we only have two sexes is the fact. Lol!

On this point we were arguing about biology in a generalized sense and whether or not it is possible to change any aspects of human biology.

And we can’t

I have been arguing that on the phenotype level there are numerous ways people have been changing their biology for thousands of years.

No they haven’t

Since modifications to biology on a phenotype level do not require any changes to it on a genotype level.

It’s called bullshit

Things like beauty standards are modifying the phenotype.

It’s called trying to blur the subject of a man and woman to confuse people that we have only two genders/sexes and biology can’t be changed in a person.

I have also identified that negative aspects of our biology can be mitigated through interventions.

You have not in the slightest, but it’s some great propaganda

We are not directly modifying the genotype but again altering the expression of it.

Trying to blur the truth I get it.

Things like glasses, special diets and medication are applicable here.

Confuse individuals on biology I understand.

I have also argued that increasing awareness of the relationship between the sociocultural and biological has brought attention to how the two constitute each other.

Again confusing the young and gullible early it’s a great plan.

The way our biological development plays out is influenced very strongly by the sociocultural environment.

Culture, feelings not biology

You have continued to misconstrue gender

I haven’t

as referring to biology despite it being pointed out to you numerous times that gender refers to the sociocultural.

And yet you are still wrong

You are the only one here who is trying to call sex gender.

Not my problem, but trust me I’m not the only one here they just not choose to argue the point on the open forum but I’ll do it until I’m put in my grave.

You are then complaining that anything said about gender isn't correct about sex.

I’m saying they are the same which they are despite a made up word added to our vocabulary

The sociocultural and biological are not the same.

In this instance they are only two sexes and you can’t change biology with a feeling

While gender and sex relate to each other they don't exist in a one to one relationship.

They do despite a made up word

Even your sources have asserted that for 10% of people their temperament does not align with their sex.

No they are just saying people are different with different emotions but they are still the same sex/gender that can’t change.

Both videos you shared of Peterson made that claim.

No he didn’t, he mentioned nothing stating you can change yourself because of how you feel.

Ethnicity is also sociocultural and has been interpreted in different ways based on sociocultural and historical context. Like gender,

Right male, female and you can’t reverse it.

it was quite often experienced and interpreted differently prior to colonization. The specific example of ethnicity I gave pertained to Rwanda and the respective ethnicities Hutu and Tutsi.

They would laugh at you for that fake history

Following colonization the ways they experience their ethnicity is more in line with EuroAmerican thinking now.

Colonization, lol! Yeah it didn’t change anyones gender/sex

But prior to that it was possible for someone who was Hutu to acquire enough wealth, in the form of cows, to become Tutsi.

Like becoming American, not some fantasy you can become something biologically different.🙄

Gender likewise had examples where in sociocultural and historical contexts it was possible to change your gender.

Not true, has never happened

Since it is sociocultural the transition simply requires that one see themselves as having a different identity

Sorry society’s until this day and age didn’t socially except massive delusions

and this being recognized and acknowledged by the other members of their society.

Nope!

 

[Scarlet Rose]

The fact it’s a made up term and we only have two sexes is the fact. Lol!

You have still not demonstrated why gender is an invalid term. I also note, yet again, that gender and sex are not the same thing. Gender refers to the sociocultural and sex refers to the biological. Furthermore you have yet to demonstrate why having two different words referring to the biological is more beneficial than having one refer to the biological and the other refer to the sociocultural.

And we can’t

We can and have been changing our biology for thousands of years. You have not disproven any of the examples which I have given. Lets start with an easy one, since you have previously claimed I am wrong on every count with this. Hair colour. The colour of a person's hair is determined by their biology. Are you saying it is impossible to change a person's hair colour?

 

[DrLeftover]

(... ... ... ... ... ... much reading .... .. ...)

1. Booze. Is 08:10 it too early to start drinking?

2. When I was in first and second grade, WAY back in the sixties, in "Bumfuzzle", Illinois, the teacher would take the pencil out of one of my classmates LEFT hand and put it in his RIGHT hand when we were writing our letters or drawing pictures.

How much of a choice did he have with which hand he was naturally inclined to pick up his pencil with?

Yet the teachers, who in their own undereducated backward "we've always done it this way" kind of thinking, were doing what they thought was best.

You may continue as before.

And now:

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

You have still not demonstrated why gender is an invalid term. I also note, yet again, that gender and sex are not the same thing.

Multiple times you just don’t like and except the answers and no they aren’t.

Gender refers to the sociocultural and sex refers to the biological.

Refers to sex male and female. Real male and female.

Furthermore you have yet to demonstrate why having two different words referring to the biological is more beneficial than having one refer to the biological and the other refer to the sociocultural.

Not sure what you mean here but one word is all we need and have had until this made up term was conjured up. If we only knew in the 90s what the ultimate crazy goal was.

We can and have been changing our biology for thousands of years.

Not our sex/gender, no! Less teeth in our mouths like new generations not having molars, yes. But never our gender/sex.

You have not disproven any of the examples which I have given.

Okay 😂

Lets start with an easy one, since you have previously claimed I am wrong on every count with this.

You are.

Hair colour. The colour of a person's hair is determined by their biology.

Already mentioned above, and it’s just a attempt to blur stupidity in the conversation about our sex/gender. But you let me know when a biological man is born with the ability to shit out a child. I’m waiting for this evolution in human species 😂😂

Are you saying it is impossible to change a person's hair colour?

You know what I’m talking about and it’s not hair color.