UN: LGBTQ Equality In America "Not Within Reach"

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

(... ... ... ... ... ... much reading .... .. ...)

1. Booze. Is 08:10 it too early to start drinking?

2. When I was in first and second grade, WAY back in the sixties, in "Bumfuzzle", Illinois, the teacher would take the pencil out of one of my classmates LEFT hand and put it in his RIGHT hand when we were writing our letters or drawing pictures.

How much of a choice did he have with which hand he was naturally inclined to pick up his pencil with?

Yet the teachers, who in their own undereducated backward "we've always done it this way" kind of thinking, were doing what they thought was best.

You may continue as before.

And now:

Lol! Yes! My teachers tried to make me right handed! The more they gave me a hard time the more stubborn I got.

 

[Webster]

My teachers tried to make me right handed!

Wait, you're left-handed?

 

[PGen98]

Wait, you're left-handed?

Who'd have thought, a leftist all this time.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Wait, you're left-handed?

Technically ambidextrous. I write left handed and can do right handed semi ok. I throw right handed. Eat with utensils with both depending on seating arrangements. Shoot guns with both. Etc, etc.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Who'd have thought, a leftist all this time.

The ultimate insult.

 

[Webster]

Who'd have thought, a leftist all this time.

The ultimate insult.

 

[Scarlet Rose]

Not sure what you mean here but one word is all we need

Currently we have gender referring to the sociocultural and sex referring to the biological. You are making the case that instead of having gender refer to the sociocultural it should also refer to the biological. How is this an improvement? Your replies to me in this thread itself demonstrate that it only leads to misunderstandings and confusion if we make your suggested claim. Numerous times I have made assertions relating to the sociocultural and in each and every instance you have countered on the grounds of biology. Which I wasn't even talking about.

Not our sex/gender, no! Less teeth in our mouths like new generations not having molars, yes. But never our gender/sex.

I am not specifically talking about sex. I am talking about human biology in general. All my examples I gave were based on generalized human biology. In each instance you claimed I was wrong and in your most recent response to me you reconfirmed that I am wrong. I am simply arguing that in a generalized sense people have been changing their biology for thousands of years. In my previous post I repeated my example of hair colour by directly asking if you think it is possible for humans to change it. Previously when I used that example you said I was wrong. In this post I am relating to, you said I was wrong on every level. The ability for people to change their hair colour was one of the levels I was arguing on.

 

[Scarlet Rose]

Gender is culturally and historically constructed. Probably the earliest proponents of this argument were anthropologists working from a position of cultural relativism. Margaret Mead, for instance, argued in the 1930s that gender was culturally constructed rather than innate (1933, 1935). Building on this basically relativist insight, but enlarging it with contemporary feminist concerns, Ortner and Whitehead (1981) argued that while there are, no doubt, some natural bases of gender distinctions, and the ways in which gender, sexuality, and reproductive behavior, these are relatively minimal in terms of the ways in which gender, sexuality, and reproduction are culturally defined, shaped, and woven into the social fabric in any given society at any given time. Biological sex, sexuality, and reproduction, in other words, form only a hazy and ambiguous backdrop against which cultural constructions are built, and it is the cultural and social constructions that operate as "social facts".

Nicholas Dirks, Geoff Eley and Sherry Ortner

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

Currently we have gender referring to the sociocultural and sex referring to the biological. You are making the case that instead of having gender refer to the sociocultural it should also refer to the biological. How is this an improvement?

Don’t care about improvement, we have only two sexes a made up term does nothing except encourage the insanity.




Your replies to me in this thread itself demonstrate that it only leads to misunderstandings and confusion


No it doesn’t I’ve been very clear on what subject we were talking about you wandered to confuse the subject it’s been a common tactic lately with this topic in our society.


if we make your suggested claim. Numerous times I have made assertions relating to the sociocultural and in each and every instance you have countered on the grounds of biology. Which I wasn't even talking about.

I am not specifically talking about sex.

That’s you, I’m not, I recognize no difference because people want to pretend.

I am talking about human biology in general. All my examples I gave were based on generalized human biology. In each instance you claimed I was wrong and in your most recent response to me you reconfirmed that I am wrong. I am simply arguing that in a generalized sense people have been changing their biology for thousands of years.

I’m and always have been talking strictly about one part of biology as per our discussion nothing else and not mixing up pretending something you can’t be. So in this conversation about the one subject here you can’t change your biology

In my previous post I repeated my example of hair colour by directly asking if you think it is possible for humans to change it.

Has never been part of my discussion, but I understand the need to confuse the subject at hand.

Previously when I used that example you said I was wrong.

What we were discussing you are since I have not seen a guy producing a child from you

In this post I am relating to, you said I was wrong on every level.

And you still are. Again you can’t change your biology. Reminder we’re talking or at least I am about one specific subject.

The ability for people to change their hair colour was one of the levels I was arguing on.

You were, I wasn’t.

 

[PGen98]

I've been trying to avoid hopping back into the circular debate here, but I am curious about one thing, so let me ask you @WHO IS SERAFIN -- you claim your primary goal is to stop the mutilation of children, correct? Since any form of bottom surgery is illegal under the age of 18, I can only assume you specifically mean some trans male individuals getting top surgery to remove their breasts, fair?

So why is it that the right fights so hard in this one area against a critical surgery for a trans male, and yet looks the other way when a cis teenage girl wants to get a breast augmentation or reduction? No one is fighting to stop this "mutilation" of children, it's a fairly more popular surgery, but because these girls are cis, not trans, it's ok by the right? Where's the outrage there?

Trans males have top surgery, something like less than 3% regret it, and those cases get the brightest spotlight shone on them to highlight just how awful it is, when in reality it's one of the most important things a trans male can do. If only they wanted them bigger...

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

I've been trying to avoid hopping back into the circular debate here, but I am curious about one thing, so let me ask you @WHO IS SERAFIN -- you claim your primary goal is to stop the mutilation of children, correct? Since any form of bottom surgery is illegal under the age of 18,

But yet it’s being done. And they are making hundreds of millions annually from it.

I can only assume you specifically mean some trans male individuals getting top surgery to remove their breasts, fair?

I mean permanently changing children with surgery or drugs.

So why is it that the right fights so hard in this one area against a critical surgery for a trans male,

All real males and females.

and yet looks the other way when a cis teenage girl

Actual female.

wants to get a breast augmentation or reduction?

I’m against all of it until you are 18. I can’t speak for conservatives who are for it or against, but I haven’t heard anyone for it. If something happened to that teenager that disfigured her that is a different story.

No one is fighting to stop this "mutilation" of children,

Don’t know if that’s true or not? I can only keep up with so many battles.

And even though I’m totally against it, it’s not entirely the same. Again I’m against it, but this is enhancing what you already have as a real woman, but again the girl may regret it as a adult.

it's a fairly more popular surgery, but because these girls are cis, not trans,

Real actual biological women.

it's ok by the right?

Read above.

Where's the outrage there?

Don’t know, but doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I’m fully in support of doctors not being allowed to do this surgery until you are a adult.

Trans males have top surgery,

Males, something men don’t usually have unless they live a terrible lifestyle.

something like less than 3% regret it,

I’m going to call bullshit on this because no true independent study has been done to trust this statistic.

and those cases get the brightest spotlight shone on them to highlight just how awful it is,

Because it’s far, far, far, more horrible. It’s like comparing to have braces to having your teeth pulled to solve a issue.

when in reality it's one of the most important things a trans male can do.

As a adult if a guy wants to pretend to be a woman have at it.

If only they wanted them bigger...

Again as a adult bigger, smaller do as you please just don’t use tax dollars or expect me to use words for something you aren’t.

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

I've been trying to avoid hopping back into the circular debate here, but I am curious about one thing, so let me ask you @WHO IS SERAFIN -- you claim your primary goal is to stop the mutilation of children, correct? Since any form of bottom surgery is illegal under the age of 18, I can only assume you specifically mean some trans male individuals getting top surgery to remove their breasts, fair?

So why is it that the right fights so hard in this one area against a critical surgery for a trans male, and yet looks the other way when a cis teenage girl wants to get a breast augmentation or reduction? No one is fighting to stop this "mutilation" of children, it's a fairly more popular surgery, but because these girls are cis, not trans, it's ok by the right? Where's the outrage there?

Trans males have top surgery, something like less than 3% regret it, and those cases get the brightest spotlight shone on them to highlight just how awful it is, when in reality it's one of the most important things a trans male can do. If only they wanted them bigger...

Just doing a basic search I did find the hypocrisy stunning. Here is a far left socialist news site and happily they are against cosmetic surgery for minors! But if you’re a girl and say you are a boy stop the train folks! Then you can begin chopping off parts to pretend something you can never be.

The double standard is next level lunacy!

Cosmetic surgery and teenagers – a disaster waiting to happen

Young women feeling insecure, media pressure to get the 'perfect body' and an unregulated industry exploiting a growing market all add up to a looming crisis. So why won't the government step in, asks Jane Martinson

www.theguardian.com

Young women feeling insecure, media pressure to get the 'perfect body' and an unregulated industry exploiting a growing market all add up to a looming crisis. So why won't the government step in?

 

[WHO IS SERAFIN]

And another one! HuffPost far left site being hypocrites.

But Jesus, to be honest what I’m reading these teenagers are being allowed to do is no less disturbing.

Adults Who Got Plastic Surgery As Teens Reveal Their Regrets About It

Bella Hadid is not the only one who wishes she hadn't had cosmetic surgery when she was younger.

www.huffpost.com

Adults Who Got Plastic Surgery As Teens Reveal Their Regrets About It​

Bella Hadid is not the only one who wishes she hadn't had cosmetic surgery when she was younger.

 

[Webster]

Adults Who Got Plastic Surgery As Teens Reveal Their Regrets About It​

Bella Hadid is not the only one who wishes she hadn't had cosmetic surgery when she was younger.

And the relevance here is what again?

 

[PGen98]

But yet it’s being done. And they are making hundreds of millions annually from it.

Umm...no, it's not.

I mean permanently changing children with surgery or drugs.

Right, so the puberty blockers and the breast removal surgery...

All real males and females.

Actual female.

You keep saying this, but I'm not seeing the point in the context of what you're quoting...

I’m against all of it until you are 18. I can’t speak for conservatives who are for it or against, but I haven’t heard anyone for it. If something happened to that teenager that disfigured her that is a different story.

Don’t know if that’s true or not? I can only keep up with so many battles.

And even though I’m totally against it, it’s not entirely the same. Again I’m against it, but this is enhancing what you already have as a real woman, but again the girl may regret it as a adult.

Ah, ok, so a teenager doing something to stop the mental torture associated with having something on their body that doesn't fit who they are is disfigurement, but to put a foreign object into their body to give them the illusion of making that area bigger is not? That's totally not hypocritical...

Real actual biological women.

Again, the point of posting this?

Read above.

Yes, please, READ the things you post, because...scary logic.

Don’t know, but doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I’m fully in support of doctors not being allowed to do this surgery until you are a adult.

In this instance, I disagree, this is one surgery that can instantaneously ease suffering for someone, and there IS a suitable option should they regret it. Would you rather have a dead teenager who couldn't bear the pain of living in a body that isn't who they are, or a teenager alive and more balanced because they did something to help align their body with who they are?

Males, something men don’t usually have unless they live a terrible lifestyle.

Trans males are male and they do indeed have them, hence the need to remove them.

I’m going to call bullshit on this because no true independent study has been done to trust this statistic.

Because the studies performed are always discredited as having too low of a study group, but trans people are such a small percentage of the population that larger study groups are near impossible...so...those studies will continue to be discredited, in spite of the fact that they continuously show an exceptionally low level of regret amongst trans males who have top surgery.

Because it’s far, far, far, more horrible. It’s like comparing to have braces to having your teeth pulled to solve a issue.

Why? Because a male wants rid of decidedly female secondary sexual characteristics? Would you say the same to a teenage boy with gynocomastia? Sorry, kid, you can't get rid of those, you're mutilating your body!

As a adult if a guy wants to pretend to be a woman have at it.

...again with the ignorance.

Again as a adult bigger, smaller do as you please just don’t use tax dollars or expect me to use words for something you aren’t.

I truly hope one day you can educate yourself on what trans actually is, because your view of it is so far off base.

 

[Webster]

You keep saying this, but I'm not seeing the point in the context of what you're quoting...

I think what he's trying to say is that (a) there are only two sexes (male & female) and that gender is irrevocably connected to sex.

I truly hope one day you can educate yourself on what trans actually is, because your view of it is so far off base.

To borrow a quote from The Wire, "Serafin would rather live in shit than admit to the world that he's wrong about something."

 

[PGen98]

I think what he's trying to say is that (a) there are only two sexes (male & female) and that gender is irrevocably connected to sex.

Which is proven time and time again not to be true, but I appreciate his stubbornness. The need to constantly repeat it, though, is lost on me.

To borrow a quote from The Wire, "Serafin would rather live in shit than admit to the world that he's wrong about something."

Fair point, stubborn knows no bounds.

 

[Webster]

Which is proven time and time again not to be true, but I appreciate his stubbornness.

I've known him long enough, Gen, that I can almost translate him word-for-word.....

 

[PGen98]

I've known him long enough, Gen, that I can almost translate him word-for-word.....

Long suffering acquaintances, eh?

 

[Webster]

Long suffering acquaintances, eh?

Of the Bromo-Seltzer variety, yep....